That must be why Yoda says you can be a 4 barrel hitter but not a 4 barrel swinger??? I'm just trying to figure out when a 4 barrel hitter fires #4, or at least what the "feel" is...
Kevin
Thats my understanding as well.
You have to move the right shoulder down plane as the launching pad for me that seems like a pull with the left side/shoulder/hip would facilitate this so it seems natural to have all four barrels for a hitter. I guess its a timing thing of the pull-push that might not be the best component pattern.
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"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
But even if the beginning of the downswing is initiated by a pull it cannot release the club via CF or you could never use the pushing force of the right arm.
Watch a guy like Mickelson and VJ, their right arm is barely able to keep up, they could not be a four barrel player even if they wanted to.
I see why its very tricky to be a four barrel player, you have to blast off with #4 but with so much force that you outrace the right arm and have the club release without #1.
Id imagine they let the right hand drop off so it cant push. Their #1 pp has dropped off but the #3pp is still attached.
CF throwout requires you to not push , CF wants to go slow , the right arm wants to speed it up by pushing hard. Id say pushing annuls/ruins CF not the other way around.
In terms of 4 B vs 3B Hitting........its a matter of whether or not the Right Shoulder is moving through the shot. 3B the right shoulder is like a launching pad that is more or less parked (it isnt really but its motion is just that motion as opposed to work) . 4B the Right Shoulder is working which makes timing more difficult. Luke has an analogy to jumping off a parked car vs jumping off a car thats on the move. Why he'd want to do that I dont know. He's crazy.
So I use two throws, Shoulder Throw then Right Arm Throw.
Speaking of Luke , when he rebuilt swing er Hit.........he started with Chip Basic , did nothing but Chip Basic for a month or so. Then he went to Acquired , then Total Motion. He built it from the ground up. And he was a seasoned PGA teaching professional at the time. So we amateur enthusiasts have no excuses. If we want to improve we must start at the beginning...... 12-1 or 2 and 12-5. Dont move past 12-1 until you have mastered it. Dont move past Chip Basic until you have mastered it. You can play some great golf with a 2 B pattern.
I really think this swinging vs hitting is one of the weak points in TGM.
Originally Posted by O.B.Left
I do agree that most Hitters have some pulling going on, Bernt. But not necessarily all of them. And so , I think to be perfectly accurate you'd have to change the "is" to "can be" in your statement above.
I really mean "is". For anyone who has hopes of breaking 200 on a par 72 course. But show me a hitter who doesnt rotate his left shoulder. Or a hitter who has so little drag that he really doesn't need his left arm ..... but I don't think you can.
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Drive Loading is Pushing and Drag Loading is Pulling and thats all. To paraphrase Homer Kelley. Axe handle vs Rope Handle , Radial vs Longitudinal.
The drive loading from top certainly has a lot of drag (pull) during transition for a proper release. I assume that you have a lot of #2 angle at the top....
If you go by a rope handle procedure you still have to do some pushing to create a circular motion. If all you do is pull, you will not wag the dog. You will only walk the dog. In the purest of TSP swings - perhaps even without extencior action, PP#4 will get things started. Wen you rotate the left shoulder, pp#4 will push the primary lever until CF throwout takes over. Then you can "drive it home" with pure rope handling. If all you had was a rotating left shoulder you would never get the action started.
Same thing with the drive loading, basically. A push doesn't make up for a curving motion.
As for axe handling I recommend that you consult your left hand and arm. Do you not feel any pull there at all?
It takes torque to produce a circular motion. A torque is like a simultanous push and pull. A human golfing machine pulls with the left side and pushes with the right, hitting or swinging.
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Homer was careful to make the distinction between Drive vs Drag in his "bare bones" identification of the alternate Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 12-2. He didn't label them Hitting and Swinging, after all.
I agree, and I think that was wisely done by Homer. But you can driveload and drag. Or dragload and push. If you go into the nitty gritty of TGM swing with PP#4 and extencior action there's pushing involved.
Drive vs drag: One can be more active than the other. But you need both to create a circular path. None of them is able to produce a swing like motin on their own.
I never have, never will, seen a good hitter without a proper pivot turn, including a proper drag that lasts until well past impact.
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12-1 isnt the only way to Hit but its the bare boned fundamental , Push only place to start. A place from which to graduate and build upon or a place to happily stay forever. Its up to you. There's nothing wrong with 12-1 somewhat rare though it is. Homer thought we'd all become Drive Loading enthusiasts actually. He loved it that much.
I do both, and based on what you describe about your own stroke we're doing something similar. When I am at my best (which isn't very often and relly not that good when it comes to it), I have a sort of race condition between the dragging and the driving where I can vary the composition depending on what I want to do with the ball.
Today I hit a ruler straight knock down with my sand wedge into 2 club wind. Without any sign of draw. It was the sweetest shot I've hit for years and I converted the birdie
Hitting it low requires hands forward and a lot of drive loading. And usually produces a strong draw or a hook on my behalf. But this time i managed to counterbalance the punch with some extra dragging through impact.
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Most of us dont give it enough of a chance maybe. Perhaps its hard to turn off all the pulling we've been doing previously. Perhaps its the pivot centric golf magazines or the effects of acid rain? I dont know.
I play regularly with a double digit handicapper who really struggles to get his pivot through the shots. He wants to imrpove and works diligently on his stroke. But as long as he quits with his lower body he will never get a consistent stroke. He disconnects with his lower body and often he looses the feel of the club weight in his left hand. He is about 5 inches taller than me and much bigger and stronger. But still I regularly outdrive him with 50-100 yards. Today - for the first time - I somehow managed to convince him to really crank his pivot through the shot and continue to a full finish. He gained some 30-40 yards on his drives even though there was still a lot of compensation involved in getting the clubhead and club face on the vincinity of the right path. And I think for the first time he really could sens what it means to hit the ball hard. We had a really good time because of this.
I'm all for pivot centric approaches. But the pivot isn't just about the left side. When it works properly it pushes and pulls.
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There is an account of Homer on a driving range , asking an early A.I. to show him Hitting. When the man took it past Top to End Homer stopped him and insisted that he stop at Top........this was something that puzzled me as I always go to End when I hit. I've since concluded that Homer wasnt looking for just any Hitting pattern but rather he was expecting 12-1. Drive Loading.
I havent' listened to those Homer tapes. Would love to if you care to share.
I think HK expects a hitter to start from the top, taking dead aim with pp#3. No pressure point rotation. When you use pressure point rotation I think it becomes 4 barrel swing (?). And if you don't, but do the pp#4 blast it becomes a 4 barrel hit (?) Please correct me if I've got this wrong.
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He did expect his A.I.s to teach 12-1 after all not just gloss over it. And in that case , Drive Loading from End is not a good idea as you have to wait for your Hands to get back to Top, on the top of the straight line Delivery Path before they can start to Drive. They need a clear straight line shot at the Aiming Point. Its a beautiful and simple pattern.
Some of the difference that is different - or so I think - is that when you swing, you swing your primary lever with your shoulder. You use dead hands and after transition the shoulder turn and CF keep your hands where your shoulder turn gives you max leverage.
When you hit, you still swing with you shoulders, but you also swing your primary lever around your left shoulder. You delegate some of the swingers' pivot work to the right arm. But you need a proper pivot action as a basis to be sucessful with the TGM hitting.
A lot of people enters LBG to find a way to improve their game. Some of them turns towards hitting because they haven't learned how to use their pivot properly. And here on LBG they get the message that swinging is drag loading and pivot orientet, while hitting is a thrust with the right arm. Which is probably what 50% tries to do initially. So they get the impression (perhaps) that they can learn to play golf without developing a proper pivot and without developing proper fundamentals.
When the role of the pivot and dragging is so underplayed in the hitting pattern description they get the impression that they can learn to strike the golf ball by using the right tricep only. While I may be exaggerating here, there's certainly more than a little truth in it.
Dragging and driving is yin and yang in golf. You can perhaps emphasize one over the other, but you still need the other to make your choosen one work.
If I recall correct, Homer recommended to learn swinging before trying hitting. I totally agree. I actually regard hitting or any other form of drive loading as a refinement and adjustment to an already functioning basic swing motion.
And I love to watch videos of Yoda hitting the ball. The man has a great looking stroke. What he does with his right tricep has very little to do with why it looks so good to me. What he does with his feet, hips, torso and shoulders have everything to to with it. The signatur of his stroke looks almost similar when he's swinging and it takes a really trained eye to spot the difference. I think that says a lot about the similarities between the two patterns.
Again Id say these sorts of debates are a matter of definition. I agree with a lot of your points , on their own but ...... lets discuss the merits of Homer's insights using the terminology as he defined it. Its pointless otherwise.
Originally Posted by BerntR
I really think this swinging vs hitting is one of the weak points in TGM.
I really mean "is". For anyone who has hopes of breaking 200 on a par 72 course. But show me a hitter who doesnt rotate his left shoulder. Or a hitter who has so little drag that he really doesn't need his left arm ..... but I don't think you can.
Where does Homer say a Hitter doesnt rotate his left shoulder? Or need his left arm? Even in Drive Loading, 12-1-0 its 12-A Standard Pivot.
Drive Loading doesnt zero out the Pivot in Total Motion its a means of transporting , delivering the power package to the Release Point for all but Full Sweep Release. If thats what you define as "pulling" then we're operating under different definitions. Your "pulling" including Pivot motion or work. There's a big difference. Pivot motion doesnt load the knuckle, simply put. Doesnt bend the shaft along the bottom/top. But pivot work does.
I agree with you on the visual similarity between Swinging and Hitting for some players , Yoda for instance. I cant tell the difference unless he (as he sometimes likes to do) adopts a tell tale 10-2-D grip when Hitting. But he Drag Loads when he Hits and gets darn close to Snap. He's got a lot of Swinging Alignments to his Hitting. These patterns are like a person's signature , they're unique although the components might be shared with another golfer. Two guys named George but with different signatures. I'd never look like Yoda in a million years and it would probably be a useless exercise to attempt it, beautiful though it is. Man I wish though. Who was it that quoted Moe as saying "dont swing like Moe, swing like you." Thats a great quote.
But I can assure you that Yoda in Release uses a different source of thrust with a different direction to the Thrust even when he changes from Hitting to Swinging, similar looking though it may be. Pressure Point #1 is not located on the same spot on the handle as pp#2.
If Yoda put up some 12-1 Drive Loading swings then you'd see a difference between his Hitting and Swinging. Then there'd be less Longitudinal to his Hitting given that procedure.
How can you accelerate Radially and Longitudinally at the same time?
Where's the Thrust? If the Thrust is "ahead" of the deadweight, it's pulling, if it's "behind" the deadweight, it's pushing. For a Swinger, The Left Shoulder and Arm are being Pushed by the Pivot but the Force acting on the Clubshaft is ahead of it. A horse Pulling a Hay-rack is pushing on its Collar but the Force is ahead of the cart.
The following can be found in my new book "Sociopolitical Context of Multicultural Diversity Among Hitters and Swingers". I'm hoping that Random House picks it up.
The Only Essential Difference between a Hitter and Swinger is the Mechanism that Uncocks the Left Wrist. See 2-P , 7-1, 10-19-0, 10-19-A below. It boils down to the Source of Thrust that moves the Clubshaft/Clubhead.
"2-P THE WRISTCOCK
Centrifugal Force alone Uncocks the Swinger’s Wrists, but Right Arm Thrust during Release is the Hitter’s procedure. Except per 2-M-3 these procedures are not compatible (10-19-0)."
"7-1 GRIPS – BASIC Basic Grip is the term indicating the mere act of holding on to the Club and relates primarily to the proximity of the Hands. They simply are either close enough to overlap or they are not close enough to overlap. So all non-overlapping Grips are Baseball Grips.
The Grips of Hitters and Swingers must differ in tightness. But still per 1-L-3, 6-B-3-0-1, 7-3 and 10-6-B. For the Swinger, Centrifugal Force Uncocks BOTH the Left Wrist and the Right Elbow per 7-19 and 7-20. So both must remain “Passive” but never “Whippy.” For the Hitter, the Right Triceps become “Active” and execute both Uncocking motions with a firmness that approaches the mandatory rigidity of the Right Wrist. With both procedures, the Flying Wedges’ alignments, as always, never waver. Grip types other than the Strong Single Action (10-2-B) either destroy the Wedges or produce inferior deviations. Also study 3-F-6. The prestressed (bent) clubshaft (10-19-A) and maximum Swing Radius (10-19-C) are resistances to Impact Decelerations that each must establish before – not during – Impact (2-M-1)." Bold by Daryl
"10-19-0 GENERAL….Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging."
Therefore, neither do their related procedures."
"10-19-A DRIVE LOADING Drive Loading is the “Axe Handle” technique of the “Hitter” – an out-and-out Right Arm Thrust against Clubhead Lag (Angular Inertia) striving to accelerate (radially) a Pre-stressed (Bent) Clubhshaft, from a slow Start Down through Impact. Per 7-19-1. See 2-N." bold by Daryl
4 Barrel Hitting
Normally, the 3 Barrel Hitter uses the #4 PP to deliver The Loaded Power Package to the Launching Pad without Accelerating the Left Arm. See 2-M-3. Hmm? so there is a Launching pad somewhere other than the Top of the Backstroke. (my contention all along, but that's another thread)
A 4 Barrel Hitter “Looks” like a Swinger. In 2-M-4 below, is a description of "How" a 4 Barrel Hitter uses the Pivot to supply the initial Acceleration of the Loaded Power Package. A strong “Left Arm” Blasting off the Chest. Then, the Right Triceps is used to Uncock the Left Wrist with enough Force as needed to Overcome the "Pull" of CF. How long would that Procedure take to "Perfect"?
So, the Pivot can be used in one of Two Ways. It can either throw the Left Arm off the chest or simply deliver it. See 7-12 For further Hints on "How to become a 4 Barrel Hitter", see 2-M-3 below.
Most of the 24 Components already are the same with Swinging and Hitting.
"2-M-4 BODY POWER Inertia can hold the Left Arm against the chest while the Body Turn is accelerating it and Momentum can then sustain it and come out with the Feel of Left Arm Power. See 2-K. To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting the Swinger’s essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact. Or, as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitters loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot Speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed. Study 6-B-4, 6-C-0, and 7-12 in this connection." Bold by Daryl
"7-12 PIVOT………It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitters driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger’s orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3)." Bold by Daryl Meaning that for Hitters, the #4 PP is used to deliver the Power Package but not Release it's stored power.
"2-M-3 MUSCLES Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during Delivery. The Pattern of the Stroke being used designates where Thrust is to originate and that is completely the player’s option. See 10-4 and 10-19. Pivot Thrust alone (2-K), forfeits Right Arm Thrust (6-B-1). Power Package Thrust alone (6-0), forfeits Momentum Transfer (2-K). Only with the driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for the lack of a longer Club. In which case – to Pivot Thrust add a strong Pressure Point #4 thrust per 10-19-C. Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4. Study 4-D-0, 6-B-2-B, and 10-4-D in this connection." Bold by Daryl. Meaning: "Thrust to the Clubshaft/clubhead"
In the Stroke Patterns above, Daryl has deliberately listed the Variations from the 6th edition, not the 7th. Specifically, he listed the Standard Shoulder Turn (versus Rotated) and the Standard Hip Turn (versus Slide).
Also, in the Drag Loading (Swinging) Pattern, he corrected the description of 6th edition's Component #23 Variation (from Straight Line to Top Arc and Straight Line). The Variation reference itself, 10-23-C, was (and is) correct.
I strongly endorse Daryl's decision to maintain the Variations as listed (in a variety of Stroke Patterns) and published by Homer Kelley in the first six editions. Also, for owners of only the 6th edition, his correction of the Variation Description (which oversight was posthumously corrected in the 7th).
I like 2-M-4. To me it speaks of "how to pull". Dont pull with the Left Arm for Total Motion. It'll pull off the body....triggering Release. Chip Basic is a different story, with the Pivot zero'd you can , if you so choose, employ a 10-3-D Left Arm Pull. You need to pre position your Right Shoulder so you dont run out of right arm.
In Total Motion the left arm is inert , stretched out by EA at the #1 , a "non accelerating" Thrust. The turning Pivot , the On Plane dive of the Right Shoulder in Startdown turns the Left Shoulder which pulls the left arm. For me the pull feels like a tug at the #2pp with the Left Hand turned to Plane. The #4pp is snug.
Sorta sounds like a Startdown Waggle doesnt it? You have to be on your left side.
Couple of point :
I have 2 6th editions.
Oldest copy has the 12-2 error in 23 says C then straight line- as mentioned
newest copy has a sticker over 23 and 24 and the change to 23 is A then top arc and straight line- transposition of the error. I got it new that way- anyone else see this??
I wish the explanation of swinging/hitting said this is how to move the "hands" not "clubshaft/clubhead".
It is a feel to me that (beyond the application of force) it is the PIVOT that creates the "out" in swinging and the "around" in hitting.
Where's the Thrust? If the Thrust is "ahead" of the deadweight, it's pulling, if it's "behind" the deadweight, it's pushing.
Yes!
And as long as you have two hands on the club as per driveloading or extencior action, you will have a two sided thrust. One side pushing and the other side pulling, whether you hit or swing.
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Most of the 24 Components already are the same with Swinging and Hitting.
Precicely.
I don't think you can become a good hitter without mastering most of the swing fundamentals.
You can replace some of the pivot motion range perhaps with a right hand thrust but you still need a lively and connected pivot to get anything out of that thrust. And as long as you turn those shoulders, there will be rope handling that creates swing speed, whether the other side axes or not.
with pure rope handling. If all you had was a rotating left shoulder you would never get the action started.
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