Pace, Pressure, Rhythm, Flails, Delivery Paths, Acceleration and Pulley Sizes

[Bagger Lance]

Lets assume both have the same clubhead speed . .. who has more hand speed . . . Tom or EZ?

Tom "fast twitch" Watson vs. Ernie "big easy" Els...

Is this a trick question??? Gimmi a minute whilst I marinate that steak.

Tom would need the faster hand speed, but MikeO would wax both of them in terms of PACE!

Not that I'm side'in with the lunatic fringe or anything but if this is a trick question you'd better bring in the big guns.

Uh oh...I think I hear somethin cock'in and it ain't left wrists.

[Bagger Lance]

Why does Tom Watson need faster hands than Ernie?

It's spelled out in 7-18.

"With the Endless Belt Effect, The Belt (Hands) and the Clubhead have the RPM but the Surface factor sets in and gives the Clubhead greater MPH - in reverse proportion to the size of the Pulley (the smaller, the faster). That is, raised Hand Position - reducing the Accumulator #3 Travel -plus Trigger Delay. Conversely - a larger Pulley (lowered Hands) requires a higher Handspeed and an earlier Trigger."

The question I have is, "If someone has high hand speed are they limited to using only a big pulley?"

[mrodock]

The question I have is, "If someone has high hand speed are they limited to using only a big pulley?"

My guess is it depends on if they can generate enough pivot lag to use fast hands and a big pulley without overacceleration. Sounds about as risky as 4 barrels to me.

[Bagger Lance]

My guess is it depends on if they can generate enough pivot lag to use fast hands and a big pulley without overacceleration. Sounds about as risky as 4 barrels to me.

Yes, flirting with overacceleration is dangerous.

What if someone lessens #3 accumulator angle, takes a straight line delivery path, max trigger delay and snap release with fast hands?

Pretty cool I think.

Bucket -
I know you have me on "ignore" but I gotta get off this thread cause its time to go back to my little wiring closet. Sorry for messing up things up in the middle of your Black Panther party.

Bagger Gump

[nuke99]

uhmm..... I like to put it this way.. what i know.. may be wrong but .. I'll bite.
Club head speed is created by

1) the maximum accumulator you can create ( Higher distance for acceleration) + the Maximum trigger delay you can make which translate to higher Rate of Release = SPEED . a combination of these = SPEED, Thus hand speed is = Strength to hold on + how fast your muscle can follow up with the release, thus grip, forearm strength and speed are very important. This part can be Very very fast and violent irregardless of tempo.

2) Rhythm is the RPM that need to be maintain ( body and arm at the pulley part of endless belt)and Tempo is speed . but a large pulley speed Travel Fast. Does it matter? yes but not as huge as no.1 i would say less important. The larger the PULLEY.. The LESS efficient as Homer explains... Larger Pulley require Higher Hand speed to maintain rhythm( cause travel further). he say Require ... NEED.. and thus club head speed is inter-related with Point 1. Which mean you can use a BIG pulley and HIGH hand speed as in big pulley and the MPH not really fast.

so.. Hand speed .. 2 kinds...

1 Now strong and fast the educated hands and brain can hold on and follow up (maintain lag pressure) to a violent faster rate of release..

2 How fast the hand have to travel in a huge pulley to maintain RPM, which have a more "passive role" in a PIVOT transport or accumulator 4 case because of PIVOT transport.

The smaller the pulley, the slower the hands required to maintain rhythm, thus more efficient, the bigger the pulley the more acceleration can be created.Diminishing returns.....

But the way I think is,, the less effort to create higher output a person can create, the better and more efficient he is, thus relying on faster rate of release is more reproducible and less taxing on the body( fatigue) thus much better mechanics and powerful.

Thus... its my bias opinion.. a turned shoulder, 3/4 barrel swing , with a cupped left wrist at the end,with a Flip release and a long back swing can go the furthest with least effort.. not neccessary the most repeatable..

I'm going crazy...

must resist temptation to stop reading bucket's post ...

[EdZ]

The question I have is, "If someone has high hand speed are they limited to using only a big pulley?"

Perhaps, but only by the club specs they are using. If you have high hand speed, it may prove helpful to get heavier clubs/shafts so that you can keep in rhythm with your pace!

[Burner]

Mr Kelley defines "Pace" as The surface speed of the orbiting Clubhead - as differentiated from Rhythm.

He urges us (6-P-0) to never make a shot BUT to make a ([non-automatic] release) "Motion".

"Your Motion must include its Pace, that is hand speed (RPM) strong, consistent and RHYTHMIC".

So, a non-automatic release procedure is invoked in order to produce "Pace" - a steady and constant hand speed, augmented by Trigger Delay to produce the desired effect.

Therefore, there is no connection between "Pace" and "Rhythm" unless a conscious decision is made to keep both lever assemblies at the same RPM - in which event Pace is sacrificed in the interest of maintaining Rhythm.

[12 piece bucket]

Why does Tom Watson need faster hands than Ernie?

It's spelled out in 7-18.

"With the Endless Belt Effect, The Belt (Hands) and the Clubhead have the RPM but the Surface factor sets in and gives the Clubhead greater MPH - in reverse proportion to the size of the Pulley (the smaller, the faster). That is, raised Hand Position - reducing the Accumulator #3 Travel -plus Trigger Delay. Conversely - a larger Pulley (lowered Hands) requires a higher Handspeed and an earlier Trigger."

The question I have is, "If someone has high hand speed are they limited to using only a big pulley?"

Now you are on to it my friend! The endless belt and the small pulley presents a mechanical advantage high clubhead speed with comparatively low hand speed relative to the big pulley anyway. It is my contention that a small pulley REQUIRES lower handspeed (which I think is Pace or at least related to it) inorder to capitalize on the mechanical advantage of the small pulley.

So back to the car analogy . . . if you are driving your Gremlin around a gentle curve, you can slap hawlazz and not worry about running into anybody's mail box or dawg (assuming sober). But if you are racing down a straight away in your Vega and you come to a sharp curve you better step on the short peddle because otherwise you will be bustin' through a DQ window or somebody's front yard.

So back to G.O.L.F. with a circle path . . . you can expend much more effort as far as handspeed without disrupting your rhythm and inorder to match the mechanical advantage with regards to physics of the snap release (small pulley) you'd better have a bunch of handspeed.

But for the small pulley and the snap release . . . you are zoom zoom zooming down the straight-away and then you divert the straight line motion into angular motion and the club SLINGS out. But if you are going down the straight away too fast the rubber ain't gonna meet the road no mo'. And you can't maintain the pressure point pressure and something has to give . . . the club can fly out to early or you disrupt your rhythm and bye bye Flat Left Wrist.

Slow for snap . . . fast for circle if you want the same surface speed.

[Bagger Lance]

Hey! Sum Bucket Luv!

The car analogy ain't work'in for me Poke Chop.

My SL500 with antislip, ABS, and fat rubber rides on rails so I hit the corners fast to drop the nose and accelerate hard through the turn. It's says Bagger on the plates so everyone knows it comes straight from LBG.

But in terms of the golf swing, we see cow to pig so to speak. In other words, one mans pork is another mans...I don't want to go there. But I agree with you!

Still no "Pace" sauce for you unless I got the receipe wrong. I'm still stick'in with clubhead surface speed as defined by #3 overtaking rate.

[12 piece bucket]

Mr Kelley defines "Pace" as The surface speed of the orbiting Clubhead - as differentiated from Rhythm.

He urges us (6-P-0) to never make a shot BUT to make a ([non-automatic] release) "Motion".



So, a non-automatic release procedure is invoked in order to produce "Pace" - a steady and constant hand speed, augmented by Trigger Delay to produce the desired effect.

Therefore, there is no connection between "Pace" and "Rhythm" unless a conscious decision is made to keep both lever assemblies at the same RPM - in which event Pace is sacrificed in the interest of maintaining Rhythm.

I think there is a GINORMOUS connection between Pace and Rhythm. Handspeed, fast or slow, relative to clubhead speed is exponentially slower. The surface speed is a result of an extention of the Primary Lever Assembly . . . thereby increasing from a small radius (cocked) to a large radius (uncocking). This increase in radius from the extention of the lever assembly results major velocity . . . but ideally not to the detriment of Rhythm with the Left Arm Flying Wedge and its Flat Left Wrist in tact . . . so surface speed is increasing dramatically but the RPM is the same . . . Law of the Flail.

So the hands can move slow (Pace) but the clubhead can move real fast (surface speed).