With the shoulders and hips fully turned, catch the naval with a right elbow pitching motion, while laterally shifting the left hip past the left foot. You will be up on your right toe as the anatomical limit of the slide is reached, the elbow will continue to it's limit, and the hips and shoulders uncoil driving the right forearm down through impact. This will give the max possible pitch elbow. You mentioned shanks from pitching the right elbow, but this won't happen if you pitch while the hips are still closed to the target.
Where do you think the pulley wheel is? Not being a smartass I'm being serious. If you actually had to demonstrate it to someone where would locate the wheel with a snappy type deal?
12,
Excellent question and one that I've never seen really clarified. IMO, the pulley wheel "radius" is a function of the left arm and the club itself. Multiply the radius by 2 and you have the diameter:
(1) Sweep release with a circle delivery path: pully radius = the length of the left arm and the length of the club.
(2) Snap release with straight line delivery path: pully radius = the length of the club.
Any paths/releases in between: pully radius is somewhere between (1) and (2).
My simplistic pov.
CG
Last edited by cometgolfer : 07-27-2011 at 08:34 PM.
Another perspective could be from that of the Hands and their Path in the Downstroke. The relationship to # 2 Angle Release or Throwout it entails assuming Auto Release ( I'm thinking the endless belt must be auto
)
Assuming there is a Straight Line Hand Path, the pulley wheel would be located where Straight Line ends. That is to say where Longitudinal Acceleration (which with a truly straight line Hand Path would have no, zero associated CF Throwout, theoretically) gives way to Radial Acceleration, Release (the curved hand path at the bottom of the Hand Path where CF Throws Out #2 and later #3 assuming Sequenced Release , Swinging). The Pulley's curved belt path begins at the Release Point. Its a mechanical analogy that assumes constant hand speed but doesnt diagram Longitudinal Acceleration (with the club following the hands in line) but does show a Straight Line belt path.
I like the water ski jumping analogy .....boat and skier travelling in line, longitudinally at the same speed until the boat takes the corner and throws the skier out radially and to higher speeds. #2 Release, Throwout being Velocity Power.
Uh but Im no scientist .... just a golf addict who's trying to get more Longitudinal. Bernt R though, now he is a scientist.
Bucket? He's like a total rocket surgeon with this stuff so ...... respekt. Bucket why are you talking anti circles? Its rude not to share. Come on........
Excellent question and one that I've never seen really clarified. IMO, the pulley wheel "radius" is a function of the left arm and the club itself. Multiply the radius by 2 and you have the diameter:
(1) Sweep release with a circle delivery path: pully radius = the length of the left arm and the length of the club.
(2) Snap release with straight line delivery path: pully radius = the length of the club.
Any paths/releases in between: pully radius is somewhere between (1) and (2).
My simplistic pov.
CG
I'll get some book quotes and holla back . . . . according to Homer (I think) the belt is the hands . . . let me do some searching and I'll get back witcha. Interesting I think . . .
Another perspective could be from that of the Hands and their Path in the Downstroke. The relationship to # 2 Angle Release or Throwout it entails assuming Auto Release ( I'm thinking the endless belt must be auto
)
Assuming there is a Straight Line Hand Path, the pulley wheel would be located where Straight Line ends. That is to say where Longitudinal Acceleration (which with a truly straight line Hand Path would have no, zero associated CF Throwout, theoretically) gives way to Radial Acceleration (the curved hand path at the bottom of the Hand Path where CF Throws Out #2 and #3).
I like the water ski jumping analogy .....boat and skier travelling in line, longitudinally at the same speed until the boat takes the corner and throws the skier out radially and to a higher speed. #2 Release, Throwout being Velocity Power.
Uh but Im no scientist .... just a golf addict who's trying to get more Longitudinal. Bernt R though, now he is a scientist.
Bucket? He's like a total rocket surgeon with this stuff so ...... respekt. Bucket why are you talking anti circles? Its rude not to share. Come on........
I'm not convinced that all this delay delay delay translates to more speed. If you check out this Mr. Batspeeds stuff . . .the cats that hit the longball (and we know chicks dig the long ball) generate the most "angular displacement of the bat" EARLYin their motion . . .
In your quote above you have correctly used the term THROWOUT . . . throwout of course being a compound word (how 'bout that) . . comprised of THROW and OUT . . . if we delay #1 elbow past navel or past where navel was at address or navel was eatin' boogers or whatever and thereby the subsequent accumulators is the club being "thrown"? Also if the right elbow remains bent that long based on 7-3 or whatever the Magic of the Right Forearm is . . . is #3 getting actuated? Is the clubhead releasing OUT to the ball (throwOUT) or is it releasing behind the hands? to me this is one of the distinctions between Hitting and Swinging
I'm not 100% on my theory but I'm not convinced that this trigger delay stuff translates to speed all things being held constant . . . could be wrong . . .
I mean Tom Watson is 60 plus and still banging it out there pretty good . . . what about JB Holmes . . .and Stricker ain't no tapper necessarily . . .
I'm not convinced that all this delay delay delay translates to more speed. If you check out this Mr. Batspeeds stuff . . .the cats that hit the longball (and we know chicks dig the long ball) generate the most "angular displacement of the bat" EARLYin their motion . . .
In your quote above you have correctly used the term THROWOUT . . . throwout of course being a compound word (how 'bout that) . . comprised of THROW and OUT . . . if we delay #1 elbow past navel or past where navel was at address or navel was eatin' boogers or whatever and thereby the subsequent accumulators is the club being "thrown"? Also if the right elbow remains bent that long based on 7-3 or whatever the Magic of the Right Forearm is . . . is #3 getting actuated? Is the clubhead releasing OUT to the ball (throwOUT) or is it releasing behind the hands? to me this is one of the distinctions between Hitting and Swinging
I'm not 100% on my theory but I'm not convinced that this trigger delay stuff translates to speed all things being held constant . . . could be wrong . . .
I mean Tom Watson is 60 plus and still banging it out there pretty good . . . what about JB Holmes . . .and Stricker ain't no tapper necessarily . . .
Are we all suffering from "lag envy" here?
I know I suffer from lag envy.
Re Mr Batspeed. I agree with everything he is saying and believe Homer would too. Given a true straight line hand path there is no CF (the force not the release type some guys talk about) Throwout. Law of the flail, the swingle releases and accelerates ahead of the handle without any force being applied from the hands or arms directly to it ......you cant if its a string or leather strap that connects the two pieces. Pure CF throwout. In other words no curved path, no circular motion, no CF or its throwout. And I believe Mr Batspeed's straight line then right arm participation release type is akin to Drag Loading then Drive in Homer speak.
I see him as describing a problem for batters where they go straight line too long..........something you dont see in golf where people tend to not have enough Longitudinal , Straight Line and throw it from the Top early.
I wouldnt change Stricker or Watson's Release personally. But they do Delay their Release Point for a mechanical advantage to my mind.
So Id say:
1. Given the same hand speed , lever length and assuming no slowing effect associated with lever extension: The later the Release the faster the Clubhead Speed given the Overtaking Rate discussion of 2-P and the Endless Belt pulley wheel analogy.
2. Throw in the slowing effect and the difference is bigger.
3. The same clubhead speed could be achieved by increasing the Hand Speed for the earlier Release Type.
4. Earlier Release's have a shallower Angle of Attack effecting the geometry of Impact (positively for some shots, negatively for others).
Here's where Ive been dying to go with this discussion
5. Confining ourselves to Swinging , Sequenced Release here. Can some Non Auto Release Triggers actually do more than merely Trigger Release? Can they Power the Release of #2 angle to a speed higher than CF would induce? In other words could an active , Non Auto Left Wrist Throw , vertical hammering like motion add more final clubhead speed?
If so you have a method of powering the swingle. (Some Non Auto Releases for sure just Trigger Release)
Bucket have you ever seen these?
Sounds like a Release Throw to me , not sure if its Left WRist or Right Arm but to guess Id say Left Wrist as he gets really close to demonstrating Sequenced Release , 2 then 3 at the bottom. A Non Auto Release Trigger he seems to ascribe it to the right elbow unfolding, interestingly.
You can if you freeze frame notice a Delayed Release again ......... mechanical advantage in evidence to my mind but not crazy late.
Speaking of Right Elbow Magic and where the Throw is take a look at this Yoda movie. In application the Release Point , Throw can be Delayed to a point later than illustrated , or it perhaps another stimulus/response thing?
Im trying to find that video of Yoda with his wooden flail from ITC's visit to Cuscowilla. In it Yoda notes when and how early the swingle releases. Its gravity powered in the demonstration and flips over when the handle is sorta kinda opposite his side as I recall. Earlier than you would tend to think.
At the risk of stating the obvious, Homer was not all about max delay! Its an option and like all options with its own implications. But that said , Id like a little more Longitudinal . Just not sure how to get it.
Could you create more lag at #2 by creating more lag at components further up stream? Using the whip analogy. I shot a little two under par at Wailea Gold (6,650 yards) today with my Arms heavy and lagging my Shoulders. Had to get the Pivot going to do that. Probably still looked like Stricker though. Man, just a tad more Longitudinal would be nice..... please.
In the first video, Austin calls golf's "biggest truth" the "biggest lie". He then goes on to demo a good impact hands location past the ball as "proof" that a delayed release is bad!
Re Mr Batspeed. I agree with everything he is saying and believe Homer would too. Given a true straight line hand path there is no CF (the force not the release type some guys talk about) Throwout. Law of the flail, the swingle releases and accelerates ahead of the handle without any force being applied from the hands or arms directly to it ......you cant if its a string or leather strap that connects the two pieces. Pure CF throwout. In other words no curved path, no circular motion, no CF or its throwout. And I believe Mr Batspeed's straight line then right arm participation release type is akin to Drag Loading then Drive in Homer speak.
I see him as describing a problem for batters where they go straight line too long..........something you dont see in golf where people tend to not have enough Longitudinal , Straight Line and throw it from the Top early.
I wouldnt change Stricker or Watson's Release personally. But they do Delay their Release Point for a mechanical advantage to my mind.
So Id say:
1. Given the same hand speed , lever length and assuming no slowing effect associated with lever extension: The later the Release the faster the Clubhead Speed given the Overtaking Rate discussion of 2-P and the Endless Belt pulley wheel analogy.
2. Throw in the slowing effect and the difference is bigger.
3. The same clubhead speed could be achieved by increasing the Hand Speed for the earlier Release Type.
4. Earlier Release's have a shallower Angle of Attack effecting the geometry of Impact (positively for some shots, negatively for others).
Here's where Ive been dying to go with this discussion
5. Confining ourselves to Swinging , Sequenced Release here. Can some Non Auto Release Triggers actually do more than merely Trigger Release? Can they Power the Release of #2 angle to a speed higher than CF would induce? In other words could an active , Non Auto Left Wrist Throw , vertical hammering like motion add more final clubhead speed?
If so you have a method of powering the swingle. (Some Non Auto Releases for sure just Trigger Release)
Bucket have you ever seen these?
Sounds like a Release Throw to me , not sure if its Left WRist or Right Arm but to guess Id say Left Wrist as he gets really close to demonstrating Sequenced Release , 2 then 3 at the bottom. A Non Auto Release Trigger he seems to ascribe it to the right elbow unfolding, interestingly.
You can if you freeze frame notice a Delayed Release again ......... mechanical advantage in evidence to my mind but not crazy late.
Speaking of Right Elbow Magic and where the Throw is take a look at this Yoda movie. In application the Release Point , Throw can be Delayed to a point later than illustrated , or it perhaps another stimulus/response thing?
Im trying to find that video of Yoda with his wooden flail from ITC's visit to Cuscowilla. In it Yoda notes when and how early the swingle releases. Its gravity powered in the demonstration and flips over when the handle is sorta kinda opposite his side as I recall. Earlier than you would tend to think.
At the risk of stating the obvious, Homer was not all about max delay! Its an option and like all options with its own implications. But that said , Id like a little more Longitudinal . Just not sure how to get it.
Could you create more lag at #2 by creating more lag at components further up stream? Using the whip analogy. I shot a little two under par at Wailea Gold (6,650 yards) today with my Arms heavy and lagging my Shoulders. Had to get the Pivot going to do that. Probably still looked like Stricker though. Man, just a tad more Longitudinal would be nice..... please.
Damn , I also want moves like Jagger.
I'm definitely cool with what Mike Austin said if you got sequenced release and swing on a plane angle like his . . . .
He's certainly laggy but I like what he says better than take your elbow to your navel region . . . to me if actually DO THAT . . . you better turn your grip and/or tilt back and shrink up your left arm.
Austin definitely tilted back he had some kinda device that looked like it made you do it.
Fine with this release and plane angle I reckon. Sweetspot laying on the plane releasing under rather than over.
I certainly don't have a problem with this stuff but I'm still not convinced that it translates to a mechanical advantage. I mean Watson and Stricker don't "reduce" the radius as much but they still are going from short to long which equates speed right?
I dont think the navel thing is really a Homer yellow book mandate is it? Perhaps its better attributed to someone else.
I doubt Homer would change Watson , Stricker or Furyk even. He defined the Turning Shoulder Plane for instance so it must be useful to his mind, viable. He might not start a new golfer off that way but he is on record as saying it doesnt have a mechanical disadvantage if properly executed. That is to say it (the Turning Shoulder Plane with all its constant changes in planes) would hit the ball just fine if properly executed.
If you were going to throw a club down the fairway as far as you could, you'd go radial and end over end it for sure rather than spear chuck it longitudinally. But would you do it without any longitudinal Delay? When seen on tape do guys actually throwing a club show any Longitudinal , Delay? I dunno. I suspect you would see some delay.
From 2-P Wristcock is Homer's concept of the mechanical advantage of the later release ......added velocity namely.
" ...So as the Clubhead moves from minimum to maximum radius , its Surface Speed (6-N-O) in miles per hour (MPH) increases geometrically. However , the RATE at which the Clubhead radius increases is an additional Velocity factor ---that is , its "Overtaking Rate" (6-F)". Which is dictated by Hand Speed, Trigger Delay (7-20 , 7-23) and Travel and which continues until the In-Line (6-B-0) FULL EXTENSION of the Lever Assembly (6-A) is achieved. "
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