I think I know what kind of stroke you're talking about here. It is not what I do when I need to get over a three, but I often do something like that from the bunker when I have a perfect lie. I also driveload around the green from time to time, something I used to do a lot before. It was a good way to tame the lag pressure from the pivot before impact.
BUT it is a physical fact that it can only be such a thing as a pure Drive Loading if the left shoulder is the swing center. You can't have a stationary head, shoulder rotation and pure drive loading.
Perhaps what you describe feels like pure driveloading. The drag loading will certainly be toned down enough to be even more effortless than effortless. But as long as you turn the shoulders you are also drag loading. Whether it feels like it or not.
Your distinction between pivot motion and pivot work is misleading. In a proper stroke there will be pivot work when there is pivot motion. The question of drag loading is a more or less situation. It's as simple as that. That goes for both shoulders by the way. But I guess we can save the work done by the hitters right shoulder for another thread. And the work done by the swingers right shoulder too.
Full Sweep Release is a Release right from Top, no Delay.
The problem inherent with Drag and Drive at the same time is that they are not similarly aligned.........two horses one pulling one way the other pushing a slightly divergent course. Homer tried to separate them as best he could. (12-1 vs 12-2). One associated with Radial Acceleration the other with Longitudinal which are mutually exclusive. One pushing on the aft of the shaft the other pulling on the Top, with divergent vectors. One pushing the left hand off the inclined plane and inducing Release the other dragging the left hand down plane in its turned to plane and non #3 firing manner. Homer was right to separate them they are in conflict when executed at the same time.
So if its truly impossible to fully zero out the pull of the left shoulder (produced by the push of the Right Shoulder and the Pivot) then you must tone it down, way down for Drive Loading 12-1. Easy to do in Basic Motion , harder in Total. I think this is the reason guys with terrible Pivots like Drive Loading so much..........their Right Shoulders dont push down plane and so they are left to just their Right Arm to get the job done.
Or you can separate them sequentially in your Downswing, which is what I do.....Drag then Drive . A Right Shoulder Throw (slow and easy one) which tends to Delay Release, followed by a Right Arm Throw which induces Release. You can go to End when doing this if you wish. But this isnt 12-1 anymore of course.
The thread you linked to HB certainly sustains the line of confusion.
HK defined Centrifugal Force as The effort of the swinging clubhead to pull the Primary Lever Assembly into a straight line) So far so good.
Everyone who read TGM and says that Centrifugal Force isn't really a force is correct. But HK wasn't wrong either. HK's definition brings the term 100% inline with general physics. But something important is left out of the picture.
HK's Centrifugal Force is just inertia. The moving mass wants to move on a straight line. That's all centrifugal force is about. It takes a real force in the other end pull the primary lever straight. This is Centripetal Force. Centripetal force pulls the moving mass towards the swing center so the mass moves in a circle. If there's any slack (out of line conditions) involved they will seek their inline condition.
Centripetal Force is essential to understand the physics involved in the golf stroke. You guys should look it up. It is the mother of circular motions. It is a force that doesn't do any work whatsoever. It changes the direction of the speed. But it doesn't create any speed.
Imagine a pole with a rope attached at the top, and in the other end there is a tennis ball. You hit the tennis ball with a racket (that would be linear force). Thereafter the tennis ball will spin by itself for a long time. If there weren't any friction involved it would spin forever. That spinning shows the nature of centripetal force.
Centripetal Force is the force that turns a straight motion into a circular motion. It's incredible important in the golf stroke. To include centrifugal force and not include centripetal force in TGM as HK did was a blunder, IMO.
When you use your pressure points and levers in the swing, the total pressure will partly be centripetal and partly linear. Needless to say, the left arm will usually carry a major part of the Centripetal Force. But it will also carry linear force. It is unavoidable for geometrical reasons.
But don't believe for a second that a swinger has more centripetal force than a hitter. The hitter basically rotates the club as much as the swinger. The amount of centripetal force involved will basically be a function of the swing speed and swing radius at any point. Swinging or hitting doesn't make much of a difference here.
Since centripetal force doesn't produce any swing speed, hitters and swinngers need linear force to do that. The linear forces are delivered through both hands. As Daryl said: One side is pulling from ahead and the other side is pushing from behind. Hitters and swingers need equal amounts of work produced by linear force to produce equal swing speed. Just remember that the real forces we apply are partly linear and partly centripetal.
"So what about the release? It sure does create a lot of swing speed. Effortless power".
The throwout enables the golfer to apply linear force to the club while maintaining a comfortable shoulder turn speed and hands speed. Enables her to add speed to a fast moving club with slow moving hands.
If the club were release without any application of linear force the clubhead would have the same swing speed as before, measured in MPH. The rotational speed would be reduced since the swing radius was increased. But this is only a hypothetical scenario. By the time of the release, the pivot and the hands already have worked themselves up to certain speeds. The golfers has no intentions of quitting, but rather to fight against the slowdown. So you push and pull hard. Linear forces delivered from both hands.
It is linear forces delivered through the hands that produces all the swing speed. The L in G.O.L.F. Centrifugal force and Centripetal force only optimises the geometrical conditions for an efficient linear thrust.
Even the purest of swings use linear force to produce speed. And even the most hardheaded hitter is "forced" to benefit from a significant amount of throwout and Centripetal force in the stroke.
And the rope - the left arm pulling - carries linear force and centripetal force for hitters and swingers.
Thanks OB. The speed YODASLUKE creates is amazing!
BTW, I have no illusions of winning the REMAX, I just want to be able to keep it up with the girl scouts again!
Kevin
When you pivot, Kevin, or Jerry or OB, and you are hitting, what kind of triggers do you use to tell yourself when to thrust with the right arm. You monitor the hands to a certain position and then fire?
I have started to monitor my left thumb with the Pivot leading as a swing because it is so simple. Where my thumb points down (vertically uncocking left wrist), is past impact.
I think I got the idea from Daryl;he's very clever with this stuff.
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
The thread you linked to HB certainly sustains the line of confusion.
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saving bandwidth its all above
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And the rope - the left arm pulling - carries linear force and centripetal force for hitters and swingers.
I think I see your main point. I also think it is well covered by HK. as "LAG". and by YODA. "Drag That Wet Mop" and by many a pro who will tell you they "hit real hard through impact". The club rotates about the hands, after trigger, and the hands clamp the shaft (in a perfect pinned joint if possible) providing centripital force BUT the hands have an on plane speed which takes effort to maintain. That effort is key.
Thats my interpretation of your interpretation of HK interpretation of Newtons interpretation. (Chain reaction producing great speed.)
Trying to think of an every day way to explain.
The Hurricane- a weather forcaster will always tell U that the winds on the right side of a moving hurricane are more dangerous because they are additive. The hurricane is spinning counter-clockwise with the wind speed constant relative to a center- the centripital force part so to say. BUT if the center- the eye of the hurricane (Golfers hands)-is moving in a linear direction (like the plane line)- the wind on the right side (club head) is moving at the constant velocity PLUS the speed of the eye hands. BUT since the energy of the hands was "sucked out" when the linear downstroke became circular more energy must be put in to keep the system moving forward LAG- "drag that mop" or - just quit with your hands and hang on and let the club coast around- most people do it that way- it can be made to look pretty good and you can now use all that energy to try and move the curved part faster- and you dont need much of a pivot because that moves the system- just flip it out there at the ball, and hang on.
I was trying for a little humor in the last lines-not funny but I try hard.
The Bear
You guys down under-because your cyclones go the other way- "just transpose like the E-flat trumpet player" unless you are also a lefty.
Which reminds me- I/we have neglected coriolis effect- Go ahead I dare you!!
Last edited by HungryBear : 10-07-2010 at 09:35 PM.
When you pivot, Kevin, or Jerry or OB, and you are hitting, what kind of triggers do you use to tell yourself when to thrust with the right arm. You monitor the hands to a certain position and then fire?
I have started to monitor my left thumb with the Pivot leading as a swing because it is so simple. Where my thumb points down (vertically uncocking left wrist), is past impact.
I think I got the idea from Daryl;he's very clever with this stuff.
City,
I'm kind of a simpleton and have barely noticed what I am actually doing. I am trying to keep my weight over my left hip/leg/foot, turn back, then as my hands start down I drive my right hip, shoulder and arm and Push through the ball.
For me, it has been a long time since I have been this excited to play.
I have started to monitor my left thumb with the Pivot leading as a swing because it is so simple. Where my thumb points down (vertically uncocking left wrist), is past impact.
I think I got the idea from Daryl;he's very clever with this stuff.
You didn't get that from me. And...stop doing that.
City,
I'm kind of a simpleton and have barely noticed what I am actually doing. I am trying to keep my weight over my left hip/leg/foot, turn back, then as my hands start down I drive my right hip, shoulder and arm and Push through the ball.
For me, it has been a long time since I have been this excited to play.
Jerry,
City is jacking this thread and you're enabling him by responding to his rant. I had to respond to correct his egregious misunderstanding of something I said which no doubt he has taken out of context or has me confused with someone else.
We have four pressure points in which to monitor the Plane Line and Innercityteacher chooses his Thumb. This is going to be easier than I thought.
Yoda, if you get the pleasure of working with Innercityteacher next spring, you might consider starting a "Journal" right about now. I'm thinking of creating a "TGM Quotes" Album (of some of the thoughts he's had) for Innercityteacher that I can give to him as a "Second Place Award" when we play next Spring. Then he can look back on his development (as we all do) and laugh.
Ok D, it is what I thought you were saying, sheesh!
Originally Posted by Daryl
Jerry,
City is jacking this thread and you're enabling him by responding to his rant. I had to respond to correct his egregious misunderstanding of something I said which no doubt he has taken out of context or has me confused with someone else.
We have four pressure points in which to monitor the Plane Line and Innercityteacher chooses his Thumb. This is going to be easier than I thought.
Yoda, if you get the pleasure of working with Innercityteacher next spring, you might consider starting a "Journal" right about now. I'm thinking of creating a "TGM Quotes" Album (of some of the thoughts he's had) for Innercityteacher that I can give to him as a "Second Place Award" when we play next Spring. Then he can look back on his development (as we all do) and laugh.
I read a lot of our posts and I do have a touch of ADD so I do cross-referece on the fly mixing quotes, book references and film.
Jerry has a coach's/counselor's heart, like a lot of people around here do. Yoda seems to, also, or I would've been tossed long ago.
Besides a sense of humor, and an idiosyncratic tilt, I do offer other advantages besides dogged determination. I can teach anything I learn to almost anyone and they seem to like it, a lot. And, I have a certain charming type of a "John Wayne" type walk that make s me popular at red-neck bars and country line-dance lessons between NASCAR events.
It's hard to Pivot and "see" the # 3 and the # 1 PP's. I feel # 4 and # 2 well enough but if my left hand is my club face and my left thumb is aft, the uncocking vertical left wrist will release before swivel and where it releases is both down and out with the left thumb pointing straight down.
If Lynn gives me lessons, I'll learn. If not, he has trained "faithful men" who will teach anyone, even me, how to do a sound TGM-guided swing.
What amazes me besides all the good stuff here, is Yoda's influence and ability to give insight to Kevin and Jerry during just one session. Those guys are sharp. And, it is way cool to see how good people like OB, Ted, Ed-Z, Jeff are after serious study.
And Daryl, I was born under a competitive star. Happily, I don't mind beating people I admire, like a rented mule.
YBGF
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Linear Mode
