Question about plane

[mb6606]

In the 7th edition the preferred variation was changed to Rotated shoulder turn, the normal path at right angles to the spine, which can locate a turned shoulder plane angle but doesn't have to. The downstroke may shift to whatever plane angle is chosen.

One source close to the TGM book told me that the rotated shoulder turn was not Mr. Kelley's intention for the 7th edition.

[O.B.Left]

One source close to the TGM book told me that the rotated shoulder turn was not Mr. Kelley's intention for the 7th edition.

This is a bit of a relief. I dont have the 7th but didnt the 6th say something to the effect that the Rotated Shoulder turn was for non pivot shots only. I know this may a be a somewhat controversial subject for the One Plane and S&T guys.

[Loren]

Well, it's in there, with a Slide hip turn.
The rotated shoulder turn says to use a shiftless hip turn. And under shiftless hip turn it says "tends toward a soft stroke with emphasis on accuracy. It can produce an on plane downstroke shoulder turn only with the rotated shoulder plane angle." (As defining a turned shoulder plane angle versus transport only?)

Something does not compute. I think shiftless hip turn is not always required with rotated shoulder turn. Only when using it for transport-only as in 10-13-B. Awkward wording. Unclear in both the shoulder turn and the hip turn.
It's in the thread on 7th Edition Changes but hasn't been discussed.

I'd stick with Standard shoulder turn, flat back, on-plane down. TSP angle. 'specially at my age.

[ndwolfe81]

If most tour players are double shifters then why is it that Lynn and Ted always have the TSP drawen in the amazing changes section?

And why in most photo are the hands, right forearm, sweetspot/clubshaft and right shoulder pretty much on it?

They must feel like that is a better downstroke plane, all the way to impact. And I guess they don't think shifting down to the elbow plane is worth while?

Is that the case?

[jerry1967]

Well, it's in there, with a Slide hip turn.
The rotated shoulder turn says to use a shiftless hip turn. And under shiftless hip turn it says "tends toward a soft stroke with emphasis on accuracy. It can produce an on plane downstroke shoulder turn only with the rotated shoulder plane angle." (As defining a turned shoulder plane angle versus transport only?)

Something does not compute. I think shiftless hip turn is not always required with rotated shoulder turn. Only when using it for transport-only as in 10-13-B. Awkward wording. Unclear in both the shoulder turn and the hip turn.
It's in the thread on 7th Edition Changes but hasn't been discussed.

I'd stick with Standard shoulder turn, flat back, on-plane down. TSP angle. 'specially at my age.

When you are saying "flat back" does this mean horizontal to the ground or to the spine?

[O.B.Left]

Well, it's in there, with a Slide hip turn.

That seems weird to me as well. Why employ a Slide Hip Turn (Axis Tilt) and then use the Rotated Shoulder Turn? The Right Shoulder would, given a normal amount of waist bend take the Power Package out, over the Inclined Plane, would it not? You could bend over more at the waist (Jim Hardy etc) but why not just employ the On Plane Shoulder Turn in the Downstroke?

Im like you, I prefer the Standard 10-13-A as taught by Yoda. Flat back and On Plane in the Downstroke. My second choice would be Rotated going back and then On Plane in the Downstroke. Either way given the necessity for sequencing 6-M-1 and staying On Plane, the Right Shoulder takes the bent right arm and the intact, fully loaded, non leaking Power Package down the Inclined Plane. To re engineer this; in order to accomplish this, the right shoulder must be on the Inclined Plane in Startdown which necessitates Axis Tilt, a Hip Slide in transition, ideally done with a delayed Hip Turn which clears a path for the right elbow. Im going around in circles, sorry.

The rotated shoulder turn says to use a shiftless hip turn. And under shiftless hip turn it says "tends toward a soft stroke with emphasis on accuracy. It can produce an on plane downstroke shoulder turn only with the rotated shoulder plane angle." (As defining a turned shoulder plane angle versus transport only?)

Something does not compute. I think shiftless hip turn is not always required with rotated shoulder turn. Only when using it for transport-only as in 10-13-B. Awkward wording. Unclear in both the shoulder turn and the hip turn.
It's in the thread on 7th Edition Changes but hasn't been discussed.

I'd stick with Standard shoulder turn, flat back, on-plane down. TSP angle. 'specially at my age.

In my 6th edition its says that "Downstroke use (of the Rotated Shoulder Turn) is normally confined to the Shiftless Hip Turn". Im thinking that given that Axis Tilt is a fairly advanced technique and designed specifically to get the Right Shoulder closer to the Inclined Plane so it can move down it, a golfer wouldnt normally bother shifting unless he intended to use the On Plane Shoulder Turn. I also think that managing your waist bend so the Rotated Plane is on the Inclined Plane is less than ideal for full shots. Perhaps Homer was alluding to this?

For short shots, putting say, Rotated is the simple way to go, you wouldnt want to Flat back then On Plane when putting! Here, if you wanted to, you could manage your waist bend, upper spine bend etc to get the Rotated Shoulder Turn moving On Plane (Pivot to Hands, Shoulder Stroke). No need to shift the Hips of course. Arc or Angle of Approach for putting vs full shot considerations here too. Hitting the back of the ball instead of the inside quadrant etc.

[O.B.Left]

If most tour players are double shifters then why is it that Lynn and Ted always have the TSP drawen in the amazing changes section?

And why in most photo are the hands, right forearm, sweetspot/clubshaft and right shoulder pretty much on it?

They must feel like that is a better downstroke plane, all the way to impact. And I guess they don't think shifting down to the elbow plane is worth while?

Is that the case?

Perhaps the confusion lies in the belief that there ideally is one singular "Plane" or one fixed Inclined Plane angle? While this may true intellectually and indeed practically for short shots, "The" Inclined Plane can and does Shift or change angles for longer shots. I cant think of golfer who hasnt shifted plane angles for full shots. Given the manner in which we define the plane anyways. (JIm Hardy's definition being a different kettle of fish, the plane of the shoulders vis a vis the left arm being one and the same etc).

From a DTL point of view, the angle formed where the Plane (picture it as a four sided rectangle along which the clubshaft or the more correctly a line between the #3 PP and the Sweetspot, travels at all times) meets the ground (the Base Line, Target LIne) can change. The club's lie angle defines the starting plane angle assuming you dont want to come into the ball toe up or down. The right forearm , or right Forearm Flying Wedge is said to be on this Plane Angle when the Right Elbow is on plane.

So "The" Inclined Plane or "The Plane" does not preclude changes in the plane angle, "shifts".

Also, Per 1-L-18 Machine Concepts. "Changing the Plane Angle has no effect on the Plane Line". Implicit in this is that Tracing the Plane Line accurately is far more critical than complying with a specific pattern of plane shifts. See Trevino, Furyk etc. There used be a really nice animation on this site that described this. If I can find it in my files Ill send it to you. It will make things clear as words sometimes fail us when describing geometry.

Yoda would, I believe, prefer the TSP in Startdown so that the Right Shoulder can get on the Inclined Plane and take the Power Package down that plane towards the ball initially. But this does not imply that he wants the clubshaft, right forearm, hands, #3 pressure point , sweetspot etc to stay on the TSP all the way to Impact. The fog will lift when you can imagine the Inclined Plane's angle changing as it shifts from a higher angle to a lower one. From say the TSP to the Elbow plane. Its the same plane of glass or plasic or whatever with different, shifting angles where it meets the ground. That is "The" Plane.

[labrador]

Sorry to be off topic but I wonder if loading of the right elbow is an alternative to winding up in the backstroke with regard to power source.

[mb6606]

This is a bit of a relief. I dont have the 7th but didnt the 6th say something to the effect that the Rotated Shoulder turn was for non pivot shots only. I know this may a be a somewhat controversial subject for the One Plane and S&T guys.

The 7th edition was interpreted from Homer’s notes and not written by the man himself. The person that told me this has all the notes and tapes and was Mrs. Kelley’s original choice to publish the 7th edition. Unfortunately he did not have the financing to complete the project. The 7th edition is not 100% accurate.

[Loren]

Sorry to be off topic but I wonder if loading of the right elbow is an alternative to winding up in the backstroke with regard to power source.

Hitters load the elbow for a right arm thrust.
Swingers load the wrists.
The elbow is in a different position between those two and the pressure on the meaty part of the right index finger is in a different place, aft of the shaft for the former, top of the shaft for the latter, optionally shifting to aft of the shaft by impact.

They cannot be interchanged. One is an axe-handle technique, the other is a rope pull technique.