"Some of the difference that is different - or so I think - is that when you swing, you swing your primary lever with your shoulder. You use dead hands and after transition the shoulder turn and CF keep your hands where your shoulder turn gives you max leverage.
When you hit, you still swing with you shoulders, but you also swing your primary lever around your left shoulder. You delegate some of the swingers' pivot work to the right arm. But you need a proper pivot action as a basis to be sucessful with the TGM hitting."
Gets even more complicated when you consider that you can pull with the left side or the right side.
I think you have nailed the most basic difference between hitting and swinging. When you hit, you substitute some of the pivot rotation with arms rotation.
This discussion is taking us into an area where TGM seems to be at odds with Sir Isac Newton's physics theories and laws. I wouldn't go as far as saying that TGM is wrong, but I would say that TGM is confusing and inconsistent with regards to separating hitting and swinging. Faulty assumptions and explanations that are raised here on LBG passes unnoticed ever so often.
There is unclarity with regards to the difference between rope handling and centripetal force (what was called radial force above) that is highly misleading. They are not the same, but they seem to be regarded a such very often.
When you pull the rope, you're partly pulling the club towards the swing center and partly pulling it forward. The first part of the pull carries the centripetal force and all it does is keep the club in orbit. No change in swing speed because of centripetal force, only change in speed direction. The other part - the forward part - is tangential force that adds swing speed. It works in pretty much the same way as a right hand thrust with PP#1. I really like Daryl's take on this.
This centripetal / centrifugal / rope handling mess often leads to the misconception that a swinger uses centripetal force to create clubhead speed. Centripetal force doesn't produce speed. Never has, never will. Only tangential force (linear force per TGM) produces swing speed.
I really like the G.O.L.F acronym. It says it all, really: Geometrically Oriented Linear Force. Homer is so close there. Centripetal force handles the geometry by keeping the club on a circular path. Linear Force creates speed. It's really that simple.
Then there's the implied assumption that you can't use centripetal force in a hitting procedure. While the truth is that you must if you want to create a motion that looks remotely like a golf stroke where the club moves around your body. You can't avoid doing it. And with two hands on the club you will to a large extent create clubhead speed the same way as a swinger does. The hiting stroke is in this regard a swing without pp#3 rotation and where driveloading substitues some of the swingers rope handling.
Much of this confusion is related to the description of Accumulator #4 which is incomplete in TGM.
It starts in chapter two:
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2-L. Application of Force. The forces generated in a Golf Stroke need to be understood before there can be any degree of genuine mastery of them. ......
From there, Homer proceeds to present the three lever forms that he uses throughout. They are supposed to be all inclusive. In doing so, he basically excludes the shoulder rotation from the equation. Instad the shoulder turn is labeled as a "carrier of motion and nothing more" when PP#4 isn't engaged.
I think Homer used PP#4 as the partner to Accumulator #4 because he made his explanations dependent on the three lever forms. The only lever force he found with regards to the left arm was the pp#4 so he used that. Doing so he missed the incredible torque that the left shoulder pull and the right shoulder push represents each of their own and together. The strong pull that you get through the left arm during the down swing is often mistaken for pp#4 pressure and the "blast-off".
There are several ways to model how the left shoulder really works. A simple torque around the swing center would be be sufficient. But none of the lever forms is fit to describe how the left shoulder actually creates swing speed. The lever forms only covers the PP#4 part of it. Same thing can be said about driveloading and the right shoulder. The part of it that is done between the ground and the right shoulder may very well be analysed in a similar manner.
I haven't been able to find where Homer describes when Accumulator #4 is inline. I don't think he did. But it seems to be assumed that Accumulator #4 is inline when the left arm has left pp#4. But in reality, Accumulator #4 is in a very good out-of line condition when the arm is at 90 degrees to the shoulders (as seen from above). That's the alignment where the pull from the left arm has the largest distance away from the swing center. Accumulator #4 isn't inline before the left arm is raised to shoulder high and pointing down the shoulder line. Something that will not happen until the finish.
TGM:
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6-B-4-B. Zero Accumulation is either no Shoulder Turn or use of Accumulator #1 alone.
First part of this is correct. If you don't turn the shoulders, the swing center will move towards the left shoulder and you will only get centripetal force through the left arm. Yet we see a lot of hitting descriptions as if the shoulders doesn't turn.
Second part is incorrect for a stroke with a straight left arm and a left hand holding on to the club. Only with one hand can you use Accumulator #1 alone. If the rope is thight you're using Accumulator #4 also.
Admittedly, there are several paragraphs in TGM that more than hints that there's more going on with the pivot than a little pp#4 thrust. But those parts are only prosaic and lacks foundation in the theoretical framework that Homer prepared for TGM. Thus you get a lot of instances where TGM is lacking and not lacking at the same time, depending on which paragraph you read. But as a framework this is a serious omission and it does impact how we understand TGM.
TGM doesn't have the mechanisms for power transmission from the pivot to the accumulators properly outlined. No wonder then, that TGM is regarded among a few critics as underplaying the significance of the pivot drive. This is especially the case in the hitting stroke. But also in the swing, where you may get the impression that all efforts are over when the right arm has left pp#4.
Much of what I've said here may be somehow off topic, but it makes all the difference in the world towards understanding the similarities between hitting and swinging and the common requirements for producing a stroke as far as physics and geometry is conserned. And also towards understanding how some of the big horsepower is generated and leveraged in the golf stroke. I tried to start a thread a few months ago in the lab that addressed Accumulator #4 but the response was zero. There are geometrical drawing and force diagrams there that outlines how Accumulator #4 works and hopefully they do not require an MSc degree to understand. Here: http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread7114.html
This post and your post in the Lab are excellent examinations into the #4 Accumulator.
I doesn't seem like you have ever experienced the "Blast Off" that Homer Kelley talks about.
The #4 Accumulator becomes In-Line when the Triangle (Both Arms Straight) re-forms at Follow-Through. The "Straight" Left Arm doesn't actually ever become 90 degrees to the Shoulders.
Couple of point :
I have 2 6th editions.
Oldest copy has the 12-2 error in 23 says C then straight line- as mentioned
newest copy has a sticker over 23 and 24 and the change to 23 is A then top arc and straight line- transposition of the error. I got it new that way- anyone else see this??
Bummer.
Times two!
What to do?
Just take matters into your own hand -- the pen and your knowledge of truth! -- and make the appropriate changes.
I still say its a matter of definition. There's one accumulator Hitting, two , three , four.......... 12-1 isnt Hitting general its 3 accumulator Drive Loading, only.
BerntR you make a good case for Pivot work when Hitting .......I do that myself. A lot of people do. Homer actually defined this procedure.
Hitting can be very similar to Swinging , I agree but not as defined in 12-1 Drive Loading vs 12-2 Drag Loading. Something Homer outlined for the delineation of the bare boned separate identities of the two alternate procedures. Drive or Drag. These are the opposite ends of the pushing/pulling spectrum. Radial vs Longitudinal. There for one to discover and separate.
BerntR, Zero Pivot, one accumulator Hitting is not recommended for Total Motion..........to me that procedure is only outlined in 12-5 Basic Motion. 12-1 is, per 12-0, Total Motion and lists the Pivot as .... Standard Pivot. No Hitter zero's his pivot for a driver.........unless he is physically limited to such a procedure maybe. I played with a guy like a while back, 80 years old or so........he shot less than 200, less than 100 even.
Add left arm like a piece of string not actively contributing to the stroke. Then left arm like a karate chop??? More confusion. Where is the right side in all this?? Homer is probably chuckling somewhere reading this thread.
First- I do have a "slightly" different concept for the free body diagrams of the pinned structure. The engineering advocates may make note of the NIH factor.
Second.- What I said in comment 2 and 3 back in post #29 still holds.
This post and your post in the Lab are excellent examinations into the #4 Accumulator.
Thank you,
I appreciate it.
Quote:
I doesn't seem like you have ever experienced the "Blast Off" that Homer Kelley talks about.
Oh yes. I played one or two seasons with a lot of blasting. I even do it now from time to time. I know how incredible efficient and powerful, yet effortless it feels.
Even though I've probably never done it as well as you do.
But my beef with this is that the blast off isn't driven by pp#4 pressure. PP#4 may be what starts the chain reaction but it's not the force that creates all the effortless power.
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The #4 Accumulator becomes In-Line when the Triangle (Both Arms Straight) re-forms at Follow-Through. The "Straight" Left Arm doesn't actually ever become 90 degrees to the Shoulders.
That definition is fine by me. But then we must be clear that Accumulator #4 inline is different than the inline of the other accumulators. Because Accumulator #4 can still produce a lot of linear force with both arms straight. Not least through impact. It is very easy to demo with a putter, hands forward, extencior action and a little rocking with the shoulders.
I still say its a matter of definition. There's one accumulator Hitting, two , three , four.......... 12-1 isnt Hitting general its Drive Loading, only.
I know 12-1-in-text is 100% driveloading. But 12-1 in flesh is driveloading and drag loading, IMO. The driveloading will reduce the significance of the drag loading, but I don't see how it is possible to zero the drag loading for a golfer.
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BerntR you make a good case for Pivot work when Hitting .......I do that myself. A lot of people do. Homer actually defined this procedure.
I know that you do. And it makes all the sense in the world. My point is you can't avoid it.
I agree that they are 12-1 and 12-2 aree about as far apart as they can be. But I don't see it as a physical possibility to drive without dragging.
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No Hitter zero's his pivot for a driver...
I agree. And when with two hands on the club and a non-zeroed pivot you get drag loading in addition to the drive loading. If you're a good hitter you will get it in spades.
OB Left,
I think you need to look behind the yellow book to digest what I'm talking about. A lot of it is written between the lines here and there, but TGM is about precise information and clarity, and how the pivot powers the golf stroke is a big issue.
Linear Mode
