through impact

[O.B.Left]

Please quantify "This much" because I see 1-L-6 going from horizon to horizon.
Could the Johny Miller comment ment the motion had arrived at "pure" horizontal hinge 5" before impact?

The Bear

I see it from horizon to horizon too , like a perspective drawing.

In regard to "this much".......it was my first lesson with Yoda. I had gone back and forth for years on turning or not turning my left forearm in Startup. I had no appreciation for Alignments they were "moves" that sometimes worked but often didnt. The "this much" Yoda showed me at that time was solely based on 1-L-6, keeping one end of the club or the other pointed at the base line, plane line. It was a revelation to me. Later I would learn of the different Hinge Actions and how any of the Three Zones can effect Horizontal Hinging .......it was "in the beginning" so to speak.

As for Johnny Millers remark, I dont think so Bear. I heard Johnny's comment about the "five inches" during the Sunday broadcast of the final round of the US Open. It was a sort of general statement about the swing, I think while he was critiquing Dustins swing. I heard it once , live , Id like to re hear to make sure, but my take at the time was that he was prescribing a "five inch" section of the clubfaces travel during impact where it should stay pointed straight at the hole. Which would be Steering. Type one Steering. Which Homer would say would produce a cut shot.

Im with Homer on that one. You can easily see it in little chip shots with Vertical Hinging after all. Let alone a driver.

[Yoda]

Hey Jerry

Kinda sorta. It can feel that way to some folks but on its own your statement is not quite correct.

It is possible to over Roll , to Swivel through Impact. It is possible to Roll like all heck and bend the left wrist via Throwaway etc. Rolling alone wont guarantee a Flat Left wrist but not Rolling at all can break the left wrist down. So Rolling is key. Let me explain.

There's three kinds of Steering:
-holding the Clubface square to the Target Line
-holding the Clubhead on the Target Line.......covering the Target Line as opposed to Tracing the Plane Line with its accompanying Visual Equivalent the Arc or Angle of Approach.
-holding the Clubhead on a level or upward path. Not hitting down in other words. "Scooping" as its known commonly.

Compare these three forms of Steering with 2-C-0 and drawing 2-C-1 The ideal application. They are near opposites! This is the heart of the book's main message to my mind. As an aside, I heard Johnny Miller talking about Dustin Johnson's swing at the Open and describing a "5 inch section where the clubface remains square to the target". I think Homer might have rolled over in his grave after that one. That would be type one Steering.

The last two listed forms of Steering disrupt the clubhead's circular orbit, (geometry of the circle) and ruin the shot. The first one, the one to which you allude deals with the face angle and makes total compression impossible as the ball slides off the face as it would for a lob shot, Vertical Hinging. A great thing when you need it but not something you want for total compression.

The three forms of Steering are common logic, "seems as if" it should work notions , that dont work at all given that golf is a side on game played with hook faced instruments. Golf and pool are not alike in terms of the geometry of impact. No Sir.

But, as Yoda so eloquently states in his video about the Swivel, Rolling the Flat Left Wrist "will take you immediately to the next level." Homer put unusual emphasis on the preparation to Roll in 12-3-0. Section 6-The Top. pt 22. DELIVERY LINE ROLL PREP. So Rolling is a key, no doubt.

In my lessons with Yoda , he introduced me to what I consider to be a near Imperative, Both Arms Straight, Follow Through via a lot of work in Basic and Acquired. But then for Total Motion you need to make it all the way to Finish without bypassing Both Arms Straight .........something that is easy to skip. (This may have beens Moe's secret by the way, for there was a man that passed through Both ARms Straight on his way to Finish in Total Motion). The way out of Follow Through, is the Finish Swivel, the Rolling of the Flat Left Wrist back onto the Inclined Plane.


So, I believe, first you learn to execute Impact as a Hinge Action, Horizontal Hinging ideally for total compression, with a clubface that is square at Separation only (1-L-17). Then you learn to get to Both Arms Straight , which means you have completed the circular orbit (1-L-9 and 2-C-0) and Thrusted all the way Down (1-L-15) etc. Then you learn how to get out of Follow Through by Rolling a Finish Swivel. But its not just any old amount of Rolling its precisely Aligned Rolling that maintains the clubshafts alignment to the plane line. (1-L-6). All of which may remind you of 12-5-0 which would not be a coincidence.

You cant just roll the heck out of it and expect other things to fall into place. But for the golfer who has done some work in 12-5-0 The Basic Motion Curriculum it may seem like that. But he has executed Impact as a Hinge Action and maintained his Impact Hands and their associated Flying Wedge Alignments all the way to Both Arms Straight and satisfied the 2-C-0 impact geometry requirements and and and.

Just now getting here. Great stuff, James. Thanks!



For those of our readers who are wondering WHO to listen to, let me say . . .

LISTEN to . . .

O.B. Left.

He is a voice, yes, but beyond that, he is an educated, informed and trained voice. There are others on the site who meet these parameters and deserve your attention, but O.B. Left is one voice you can rely upon.

[gmbtempe]

OB,

that does make sense, the putting arc is a good analogy. I do understand that as the club moves back and up (and back down) the inclined plane its moving along an arc even though a plane is a straight line (at least my understanding). I just have never seen a benefit of the visual equivalent in hitting the golf ball, which I assume is a lack of my understanding rather than an inadequate procedure.

When I swing down I don't see a blur, don't see anything. If I had to pick something out that I might be draw to its the arc my hands are making. When I practice seeing the blur of the clubhead I get steering.

[HungryBear]

I need to restate and define:
The root of my concerns are related to –Swinging, horizontal hinging, sequenced release and TRUSTING my stroke to properly manipulate CF.
All with, a flat left wrist, lag pressure point and straight plane line all with “reasonable” balance, rhythm and a stationary head.
This thread relates a “through impact” condition, prior thread relates “roll starts where”.
Well, to me, they both relate to the same . IMPACT alignment(s).
The horizontal hinge rolls through impact with the rhythm of #3 accumulator transfer power made up of the residual #2 accumulator .
There are a Gazillion ways to do this and manipulations and adjustment and synchronizing and sequencing events occurring and methods of doing them. From the feet to the first joint on my index finger to my brain which TELLS me what to do, lets/makes it happen and evaluates it before I come to rest at finish.
The question in my mind is because every swing with every club of all lengths at a broad range of speeds each requires a different plan.
The narrow aspect of this is. What is a reasonable distance/interval prior to impact to have established impact alignment? Do I use release type, aiming point, etc. all of the above.
Or is it risk tolerance and trust on how close I cut it?
Because if late miss it is cut to right field but early it is snap to left field.
Maybe The answer is trial and error then lots of practice- BUT isn’t that where I was before TGM? With the expectations that IMPROVED alignments will make the difference?

The Bear

[Daryl]

If you adhere to the "Power Package" theory, then the answer rests with the Alignments and assembly of the Power Package. Flat Left Wrist, Bent Right Wrist, Left Arm Wedge, Right Arm Wedge, and Left Arm and Right Forearm Wedges Aligned 90 degrees to each other. Release occurs while the Right Arm is Straightening without Changing those Alignments (Including Putting).

Given a parallel Stance, Plane and Target Line, then:

Single Wrist Action, Aligns the Power Package by the End of Start-up. These Alignments remain undisturbed until Both Arms become Straight during Follow-Through.

Standard Wrist Action Aligns the Power Package by the Beginning of the Backstroke. These Alignments remain undisturbed until Both Arms become Straight during Follow-Through.

Double Wrist Action Aligns the Power Package one Split Second before Impact. These Alignments remain undisturbed until Both Arms become Straight during Follow-Through.

[HungryBear]

Standard Wrist Action Aligns the Power Package by the Beginning of the Backstroke. These Alignments remain undisturbed until Both Arms become Straight during Follow-Through.

Double Wrist Action Aligns the Power Package one Split Second before Impact. These Alignments remain undisturbed until Both Arms become Straight during Follow-Through.

May be an answer there. I do try and keep the clubface on plane until and into release. Makes left wrist cup as arm points below plane, Double. will test standard. but that will make pp3 feel partially rotated to behind shaft at start of release. will try that as first experiment as it should prevent any "hunting" with left wrist if that is what I am doing.

[O.B.Left]

I need to restate and define:
The root of my concerns are related to –Swinging, horizontal hinging, sequenced release and TRUSTING my stroke to properly manipulate CF.
All with, a flat left wrist, lag pressure point and straight plane line all with “reasonable” balance, rhythm and a stationary head.
This thread relates a “through impact” condition, prior thread relates “roll starts where”.
Well, to me, they both relate to the same . IMPACT alignment(s).
The horizontal hinge rolls through impact with the rhythm of #3 accumulator transfer power made up of the residual #2 accumulator .
There are a Gazillion ways to do this and manipulations and adjustment and synchronizing and sequencing events occurring and methods of doing them. From the feet to the first joint on my index finger to my brain which TELLS me what to do, lets/makes it happen and evaluates it before I come to rest at finish.
The question in my mind is because every swing with every club of all lengths at a broad range of speeds each requires a different plan.
The narrow aspect of this is. What is a reasonable distance/interval prior to impact to have established impact alignment? Do I use release type, aiming point, etc. all of the above.
Or is it risk tolerance and trust on how close I cut it?
Because if late miss it is cut to right field but early it is snap to left field.
Maybe The answer is trial and error then lots of practice- BUT isn’t that where I was before TGM? With the expectations that IMPROVED alignments will make the difference?

The Bear

Wow. Thats some question.

I like D's answer from a Power Package perspective. But from a clubface perspective , since you are assuming Horizontal, that face is in the process of closing and so it doesnt arrive at its Impact Alignment until Impact.

Scary stuff when you think about it like this. In a similar regard, Homer told his GSEM class in 1982 that he had no idea how the pros could make such things happen on a regular basis. But as he noted , they were the performers and he was the researcher. Indeed how did Tiger or Seve or any childhood wunderkind get the job done? I can assure you it was not with an intellectual application of golf science but by FEEL. And thats where Homer's book eventually takes you as it must. It is the only way to PLAY (as opposed to Practice).

Bear, you can adjust the aiming point given the length of the lever , the club you are swinging and the rate at which it wants to change ends. That is one helpful bit of machine adjustment, science. I noticed how you bolded the word "TRUST". CF does seek to pull into a straight line the left arm and club, in a flail like fashion ....and so, if you are Swinging then I like George Knudson's thought that YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP CONTROL TO GAIN CONTROL. (His balance was pretty impeccable too).

Is there a chance you are disrupting CF in some manner? Swinging and employing a Release Trigger, a Throw that you sometimes over do? Do you have problems with Over Acceleration with certain clubs, the longer ones? Are your Wrists tension free? Do you place more emphasis on a mechanic than on balance? Maybe its just your time to set yourself free? To give up control. To start Playing the game instead of Practicing.

Try swinging super slow , but heavy with Lag that you sense at the #3 and go to an Automatic Release. Try swinging like Bobby Jones for a while and see if things dont work out on their own. Lagging Takeaway, Float Loading, 3/4 swings that you will find go quite a distance. You'll wonder why you dont just do that all the time..........maybe you should. Or maybe its just an exercise in freedom of motion.

My apologies if this is way off the mark. The short answer would have been........"yes Trust, FEEL by any and all means. Those guys on tour arent thinking about mechanics, not when they're playing well anyways."

[HungryBear]

"

Wow. Thats some question.

I like D's answer from a Power Package perspective. But from a clubface perspective , since you are assuming Horizontal, that face is in the process of closing and so it doesnt arrive at its Impact Alignment until Impact.

My Poor communication skills-I would never be a good instructor What I mean to say is Vertical hinge, closing only and the sweet spot on plane. 2-C-1 with a little more forward lean on the shaft at impact- no compromise acceptable to me .

Scary stuff when you think about it like this. In a similar regard, Homer told his GSEM class in 1982 that he had no idea how the pros could make such things happen on a regular basis. But as he noted , they were the performers and he was the researcher. Indeed how did Tiger or Seve or any childhood wunderkind get the job done? I can assure you it was not with an intellectual application of golf science but by FEEL. And thats where Homer's book eventually takes you as it must. It is the only way to PLAY (as opposed to Practice).

Bear, you can adjust the aiming point given the length of the lever , the club you are swinging and the rate at which it wants to change ends. That is one helpful bit of machine adjustment, science. I noticed how you bolded the word "TRUST". CF does seek to pull into a straight line the left arm and club, in a flail like fashion ....and so, if you are Swinging then I like George Knudson's thought that YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP CONTROL TO GAIN CONTROL. (His balance was pretty impeccable too).

Is there a chance you are disrupting CF in some manner? YES Swinging and employing a Release Trigger, a Throw that you sometimes over do? NO-UNDERDO Do you have problems with Over Acceleration with certain clubs, the longer ones? NO- but that can creep in with ease and there are days that it is hard to correct- but not included here. Are your Wrists tension free? Do you place more emphasis on a mechanic than on balance? Maybe its just your time to set yourself free? To give up control. To start Playing the game instead of Practicing.

I AM STUCK IN CHAPTER # (3-B,C mostly)


Try swinging super slow , but heavy with Lag that you sense at the #3 and go to an Automatic Release. Try swinging like Bobby Jones for a while and see if things dont work out on their own. Lagging Takeaway, Float Loading, 3/4 swings that you will find go quite a distance. You'll wonder why you dont just do that all the time..........maybe you should. Or maybe its just an exercise in freedom of motion.

I do that sometimes and it is OK- BUT- As For me, being a bad example in this modern day, golf is a MACHO game. I started with persimmon and Arnold Palmer. I also have a #1 iron, several in fact, and there are days when I can actually make it “sing” and that makes me happy.

My apologies if this is way off the mark. The short answer would have been........"yes Trust, FEEL by any and all means. Those guys on tour arent thinking about mechanics, not when they're playing well anyways."

Thanks, but I like the long answers, the short answers are in Golf Digest every month and they do nothing but sell magazines.

The Bear

[innercityteacher]

Ok let me try this again in word form, which is some what handicapped.

Imagine you are sliding your clubshaft along an Inclined Plane board. The shaft points at the Plane Line , Base Line at all times, right? But your eyes do not lie on this Inclined plane. They are way above it. And so, visually , to your eyes the clubhead does not "Cover" the Plane Line. It would if your eyes were on the same plane as your clubshaft. If you scoped the shaft like a rifle say. Instead , visually you see the Clubhead describing an Arc , an arc to a degree consistent with your Plane Angle vis a vis your eyes. The flatter your Plane the more arc your eyes will see. This Arc is inscribed on the ground , it is the Arc of Approach , the arcing clubhead blur you see with your eyes, despite the fact your clubshaft points at all times at the Base of the Plane. I

Its a visual , from your eye line only , a Visual Equivalent to tracing a straight line base line. Its a paralax point of view of the circular club head path , like looking at hula hoop from an off angle as opposed to having your eyes aligned to its plane.

You are making an on plane swing motion but your eye sees the clubhead travel in an arc. To attempt to visually see the clubhead travel a straight line (unless the shaft plane aligns with your eye line or similar) ....logical though it may seem, given our past experiences with pool or billiards etc is to Steer the clubhead, to cover the Plane Line with the Clubhead , visually. Which means that the Shaft is not traveling the Inclined Plane. In fact it leaves it.

All of this is the genesis of the putting Arc gadgit. The arc represents the same geometry as the inclined plane, is the same geometry as the string line that you run your putter shaft along, they all work together............as opposed to the Pelz putting rails say. "Straight back straight through" which, though you would visually see the clubhead cover the plane line would also have shaft leave the string line, on both sides of the ball. Its non planar in a clubshaft sense. The label on your putters shaft describes a "U" shaped arc and leaves the string line. The string line is a horizontal line on the Inclined Plane , which you could imagine as being comprised of hundreds of string lines that when viewed from "down the line" form an inclined plane.

gmbtempe, Its all very confusing in word form , I apologize .... an animation (which hopefully is coming soon) will hopefully allow more people to see the geometry. Once you see it..........you got it.

I think if Tiger would read these posts and this forum, he would benefit, greatly. Hell, they all would!

There are different kinds of personalities all with different strengths and weaknesses, HK must have been a "concrete-realist" of some type to be so laser-focused on how our bio-mechanics allow us to stay on plane. Awesome and good for us!

Thanks for the info.

Pat

[O.B.Left]

Bear, wait you have a 1 iron and chamois grips..........we must be separated at birth. Im the king of long irons in an age of rescue clubs. I lost my advantage to those contraptions actually. Damn those things and the horse they rode in on to eternal damnation.......(or allow me to find some that I can hit better than my 2 iron). I put my one irons away a while back......I miss those things.