zero shift

[tongzilla]

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Ok, here's the Els clip from the other thread: http://www.golfswing.com/proswings/els.htm I am reasonably convinced Els is using a Single Shift. But I know Delaware does not agree- he thinks it's Zero Shift. Let the debate begin... EDIT: oh yes, and I'm certain it's not a Double Shift! Not on this clip anyway.

Nada Shift....plain and simple.....

DG

We need somone green (hint hint) to give an authoritative answer to this simple question. What plane shift variation is Els using in this clip?

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Delaware Golf

I question the accuracy of Mr. Stickney's analysis and/or interpretation of plane angle variations...I believe calling Ernie's swing a double shift is incorrect.... DG

DG~

Using the RedGoat sequence, and including PP3, I see a shift going back but he seems very close to the TSP in the move down. However, that sequence is 03 and recently the clubhead was outside the hands at the first check point. When his clip from the Gallery could be loaded, I was using the mouse pointer on his head and hips to check movement- If that could just be "bottled!"

BTW, the Els clip has not stimulated much discussion or have I missed it?

DRW

Els components....

6) Plane Angle--- Basic 10-6-B Turned Shoulder Plane
7) Plane Angle Variation 10-7-A Zero
8 ) Pivot 10-12-A Standard
13) Shoulder Turn 10-13-A Standard
14) Hip Turn 10-14-A Standard
15) Hip Action 10-15-B Delayed
21) Power Package
Assembly Point 10-21-C End
23) Power Package
Delivery Path 10-23-C Top Arc and Straight Line Path


Some of the components used by Els to justify a zero shift plane angle. I believe most golfers new to TGM think the end assembly point and Top Arc and Straight Line Path generate a shift....they don't!!!! Check/Study 12-2-0.

DG

[densikat]

Can you show some pictures of where he does this Delaware? Every swing sequence Ive ever seen of him, he takes it back elbow, shifts up to turned shoulder and comes down turned shoulder.

[tongzilla]

I think we all agree there is no Plane Shift on the Downstroke as Els' hands come directly down the Turned Shoulder Plane.

However, because Els does not address the ball with an on-plane Right Forearm, the angle of inclination of the clubshaft (and his hands) are positioned several inches below the Turned Shoulder Plane. His hands don't arrive on the Turned Shoulder Plane until about shoulder high (the Top). That would be a single shift -- Elbow to Turned Shoulder.

You're spot on rwh- it's what I've always said. So what if Hip Turn is Standard and Hip Action is Delayed-- these other component variations are of no significance regarding Plane Variation-- it's completely irrelevant.

EDIT: ok Delaware, I will let you off your Zero Shift theory of Els if you're referring to no shift in the downstroke- but that's a different matter. There ain't no component based solely on downstroke plane variation.

[EdZ]

I think that sometimes people get confused when discussing plane because they may have a different perspective on 'what' defines the 'plane'.

It may be useful to look at what Homer said about plane in 2-F

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined together at the Sweet Spot - the longitudial center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot", or "Swing", Plane. But herein, and unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application

In other words, the true plane is not defined by a 'body part', or even the 'clubshaft' per se - but by Force. The 'center of the circle' to the 'sweet spot' at impact.

[DOCW3]

I think that sometimes people get confused when discussing plane because they may have a different perspective on 'what' defines the 'plane'.

It may be useful to look at what Homer said about plane in 2-F

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined together at the Sweet Spot - the longitudial center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot", or "Swing", Plane. But herein, and unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application

In other words, the true plane is not defined by a 'body part', or even the 'clubshaft' per se - but by Force. The 'center of the circle' to the 'sweet spot' at impact.

Edz~

Should another sentence of the referenced paragraph be included?

*"Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point."

DRW

[DOCW3]

I think we all agree there is no Plane Shift on the Downstroke as Els' hands come directly down the Turned Shoulder Plane.

However, because Els does not address the ball with an on-plane Right Forearm, the angle of inclination of the clubshaft (and his hands) are positioned several inches below the Turned Shoulder Plane. His hands don't arrive on the Turned Shoulder Plane until about shoulder high (the Top). That would be a single shift -- Elbow to Turned Shoulder.

rwh~Is this illustrated by the 10-6-B photo? Also, as I read it, 10-13-D makes the same point from a different perspective- because Els' right shoulder does not reach the address shaft plane (or sweetspot plane) in the backstroke, he would have to steepen it for a zero shift.

OTOH, while Mr. K in 7-13 provides rationale for the hands and shoulder moving on the same downstroke plane, rationale is less specific for why PP3/hands should move back on the TSP instead of to it.

DRW

[EdZ]

Yes indeed! How could I have left that one out - one of my 'favorites' and one of the reasons that I like to monitor the 'plane of the pressure points'

[DOCW3]

rwh~

What I was wanting to establish was a book photo(s) illustrating zero shift. Since none are included in 10-7, I assume that is because they are already there (once is enought!). I like those in 10-13 but 10-6-B preceeds the 10-7 information. You may still have the Steven Covey question, "how old is the lady?"

DRW

[DOCW3]

Originally Posted by DOCW3

rwh~ What I was wanting to establish was a book photo(s) illustrating zero shift. Since none are included in 10-7, I assume that is because they are already there (once is enought!). I like those in 10-13 but 10-6-B preceeds the 10-7 information. You may still have the Steven Covey question, "how old is the lady?" DRW

DRW,

I am unaware of any photo depicting a Zero Shift.

Obviously there is not one with that label! If this means there is not one, it would seem to be a contradiction for someone who provided photos for almost everything of significance. Now, what did I do with that incubator?