Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I'll just post it here..
The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot's movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer. The pivot's pivot gear train begins from the bottom up. Even TT moves his hips first- go check the front viewo pf his swing in chap 9. Small bump that continues to rotate just before the Hands drop.
This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.
Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I hope sometime today.
BUT... The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer
This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.
Understand Hula Hula- maybe one of the top original concepts Mr Kelley developed in his research- and you will see the relationship better between a Hand controlled Pivot and its Pivot components. The Hips, independent from the shoulders, creates a path for the hands. Ever so important for a Hitter to have an avenue and important for a CF gyro cranking swinger to free wheel the Master Accumulator. These actions are not pivot control. With Hula Hula, the Hands have complete guidance to the low point. How can that be pivot control?
Strip away everything a student of Homer Kelley’s book has learned and the last thing you will find- the first thing ever told to the student is Hands Control the Pivot. Even before The Imperatives. It is taught at the earliest introduce to TGM because the physics of a stroke should never control or dominate the geometric alignments. A student must understand this idea right from the start. The ‘reach’ is a nice way to introduce the concept the way elementary students learn about History. Details change the more you study.
Can you let the Hands drop without any hip movement? If that is the way you trained your pivot but I think the hands would be at the mercy of the rotation more so then with Hula Hula- the great highway builder. And not every stroke is a full swing.
Homer says Train the Pivot.
What’s the pivot for?
To Delivery the Hands to Impact.
The Hands train the pivot.
My Hands have trained the pivot (many times)
I have gotten little support discussing Hula Hula and the Training of the Pivot. Mike O and I have discussed this in another thread. I have reviewed all Yoda materials, his old posts, workshop notes and videos and for the life of me can see how Lynn taught me wrong.
Reach or Train, Hula Hula or Drop, Sweep or Snap, Hit or Swing. You got the options.
Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I'll just post it here..
The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot's movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer. The pivot's pivot gear train begins from the bottom up. Even TT moves his hips first- go check the front viewo pf his swing in chap 9. Small bump that continues to rotate just before the Hands drop.
This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.
Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I hope sometime today.
BUT... The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer
This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.
Understand Hula Hula- maybe one of the top original concepts Mr Kelley developed in his research- and you will see the relationship better between a Hand controlled Pivot and its Pivot components. The Hips, independent from the shoulders, creates a path for the hands. Ever so important for a Hitter to have an avenue and important for a CF gyro cranking swinger to free wheel the Master Accumulator. These actions are not pivot control. With Hula Hula, the Hands have complete guidance to the low point. How can that be pivot control?
Strip away everything a student of Homer Kelley’s book has learned and the last thing you will find- the first thing ever told to the student is Hands Control the Pivot. Even before The Imperatives. It is taught at the earliest introduce to TGM because the physics of a stroke should never control or dominate the geometric alignments. A student must understand this idea right from the start. The ‘reach’ is a nice way to introduce the concept the way elementary students learn about History. Details change the more you study.
Can you let the Hands drop without any hip movement? If that is the way you trained your pivot but I think the hands would be at the mercy of the rotation more so then with Hula Hula- the great highway builder. And not every stroke is a full swing.
Homer says Train the Pivot.
What’s the pivot for?
To Delivery the Hands to Impact.
The Hands train the pivot.
My Hands have trained the pivot (many times)
I have gotten little support discussing Hula Hula and the Training of the Pivot. Mike O and I have discussed this in another thread. I have reviewed all Yoda materials, his old posts, workshop notes and videos and for the life of me can see how Lynn taught me wrong.
Reach or Train, Hula Hula or Drop, Sweep or Snap, Hit or Swing. You got the options.
One great concept in TGM is called "Facts and Illusions".....in the 7th edition you can find that concept on page XII second paragraph.....with this commentary, I hope all can see why Homer put the "Facts and Illusions" concept in the book. It's very real....
In the above comments you're witnessing someone interpreting the golf swing based on Illusion....not fact. Tomasello did not move his hips first on the downswing. That is a frickin Illusion pure and simple. Interesting to find someone in this state. But there it is....
Tomasello's hips react to the action of the Magic of the Right Forearm technique in the last paragraph of 7-3.
In his teaching, Tommy Tomasello used both Standard hip action and delayed (for both procedures he used the right forearm to start the downswing). Both approaches incorporated the use of the right forearm even with standard hip action to keep the HANDS on the straight line delivery path or the hands would have moved to an angled path. Yeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwww
And that's the truth (just the facts from personally studying with Tomasello)..No Illusion.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-25-2007 at 08:16 PM.
One great concept in TGM is called "Facts and Illusions".....in the 7th edition you can find that concept on page XII second paragraph.....with this commentary, I hope all can see why Homer put the "Facts and Illusions" concept in the book. It's very real....
In the above comments you're witnessing someone interpreting the golf swing based on Illusion....not fact. Tomasello did not move his hips first on the downswing. That is a frickin Illusion pure and simple. Interesting to find someone in this state. But there it is....
Tomasello's hips react to the action of the Magic of the Right Forearm technique in the last paragraph of 7-3.
In his teaching, Tommy Tomasello used both Standard hip action and delayed (for both procedures he used the right forearm to start the downswing). Both approaches incorporated the use of the right forearm even with standard hip action to keep the HANDS on the straight line delivery path or the hands would have moved to an angled path. Yeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwww
And that's the truth...
DG
First that someone is me, right, dkbg?
And what kind of state am I in?
This post had little or nothing to do with TT. I just mention that he even moves his hips at the start of the downswing and that it is still a Hands Controlled pivot. The post was about the idea of a Hands controlled pivot and some of its misconceptions.
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing. You do understand that, do you, HeYaw? Guess not.
Homer said never listen to what they say or write- watch what they do.
Facts and Illusions ya got to love it...............
DG
Yes- Love them.
Here are two quotes concerning the videos tapes from another Tom Tomasello student who by his account, studied with him longer than anyone else on this forum:
“The true "illusions" that I see are reflected in Tom's "feels" versus what is actually happening.
His narrative and his full speed motion are completely at odds with each other.”
But.... that said. I Totally agree with the next quote from the same former student and now well respect instructor:
What he does leave us with, is a wonderful swinging motion completely subservient to centrifugal force. The full lever extension, sequenced release, left wrist going from cocked, to level, to uncocked, and the right wrist going from level to uncocked are textbook. The Law of the Flail, rhythm, definition of keeping the club on plane, the Flying Wedges, the three imperatives are ALL here! Pay heed all of you swingers! Thanks Tom for all of your enthusiasm, devotion, and your wonderfully infectious manner.
My problem is with YOU and your inability to answer a question that may have you think outside the sphere of TT’s tapes and magazine interview. You are condescending in your remarks to "them" who dare to question a point. "Truth" never needs to steer clear of a question or hide behind a bozo. Tom Tomesallo will always be a pioneer in the instruction of TGM. You on the other hand….
Here are two quotes concerning the videos tapes from another Tom Tomasello student who by his account, studied with him longer than anyone else on this forum:
“The true "illusions" that I see are reflected in Tom's "feels" versus what is actually happening.
His narrative and his full speed motion are completely at odds with each other.”
But.... that said. I Totally agree with the next quote from the same former student and now well respect instructor:
What he does leave us with, is a wonderful swinging motion completely subservient to centrifugal force. The full lever extension, sequenced release, left wrist going from cocked, to level, to uncocked, and the right wrist going from level to uncocked are textbook. The Law of the Flail, rhythm, definition of keeping the club on plane, the Flying Wedges, the three imperatives are ALL here! Pay heed all of you swingers! Thanks Tom for all of your enthusiasm, devotion, and your wonderfully infectious manner.
My problem is with YOU and your inability to answer a question that may have you think outside the sphere of TT’s tapes and magazine interview. You are condescending in your remarks to "them" who dare to question a point. "Truth" never needs to steer clear of a question or hide behind a bozo. Tom Tomesallo will always be a pioneer in the instruction of TGM. You on the other hand….
If Tommy's swing is so good (as you say above), why would I or anyone have to think outside the sphere of TT's tapes and magazine interview (it's all there and in the book). I am through with being a reseacher....as Homer said the reseach is complete (with the 7th edition). I agree. I'm sorry you're still searching.
I believe the Tomasello student your referencing is one who possibly didn't get it (based on previous posts). It's taken me years to get it. Why am I getting it....because it's spelled out in the BOOK CLEARLY. I used my audio lesson cassettes of Tomasello to guide me. Did the other former Tomasello student put his lessons on tape???
Next question.....why are you the only one attacking TOMMY"S instruction. The BS about having a problem with me is hilarious. See, when you don't have a REAL technicial arguement you must resort to personal attacks.
Tommy's instruction does not come from just Tom Tomasello there are other instructors who teach this way. Sorry, if you think Tomasello is unique. Just remember the comment Tomasello made about Tommy Armour for starters. Checkout the Chapter video series.
From the first hour of Homer's first Master class, Homer even says (Enthusiastically) you can swing with the right arm. He even went out of his way to say it.
Enough of this waste of time nonsense......time to hit the golf course.
In it's basic form, TGM definitely has a very regimented approach (see chapter 12 executed per 7-3, 2-N-0, and 2-N-1 of the 7th edition). But it can be customized per one's flexiblity, skill and knowledge. Customization is best done through an Authorized Golf Instructor of the System.
Happy Memorial Day Everyone,
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-28-2007 at 07:41 PM.
Questions are asked. Answers are not given. Kelley said ask questions. Questions lead to growth.
You present absolutes. You said that you will find no answers to G.O.L.F. in Orlando with Yoda.
Lynn fields questions.
I have watched the videos a dozen times- at least, several of them many more times. Was I to become mesmerized? It did make me want to know more.
Right arm swing, 3 barrel hit- I don't care. TT is a pioneer and was a great TGM instructor few will ever approach.
But many had questions and you always saw that as an attack.
Questions are asked. Answers are not given. Kelley said ask questions. Questions lead to growth.
You present absolutes. You said that you will find no answers to G.O.L.F. in Orlando with Yoda.
Lynn fields questions.
I have watched the videos a dozen times- at least, several of them many more times. Was I to become mesmerized? It did make me want to know more.
Right arm swing, 3 barrel hit- I don't care. TT is a pioneer and was a great TGM instructor few will ever approach.
But many had questions and you always saw that as an attack.
Like I said earlier, I'm not getting into a debate. Don't need to. You're off the mark regarding Lynn in Orlando.
The shots with the driver today were awesome (drives in the 300 yard range and Straight, just like the interview says).....totally using the swinging motion from Tommy's 1991 Golf Illustrated interview which can be found in 7-3. When I studied with Tomasello in person, he called it learning the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM. It does produce Magic...
Don't know if I would call Tomasello a pioneer (some called him the Billy Graham of TGM)...the swinging procedure he taught can be found in John Jacobs 1972 text "Practical Golf"....Tommy also made the comment during my three day school....to paraphrase Tommy "in the OLD days we use to call it "backing it out" (uncocking the right forearm with a quiet body).....in reference to the uncocking of the right elbow from the top....a la "The Magic of the Right Forearm"....it wouldn't surprise me if Tomasello turned Homer onto Jacobs book. It's interesting that the Magic of the Right Forearm concept turned up after Homer started working with Tomasello. After about three years of intense study, I'm starting to understand why the technique was coined that name.
Tommy made it very clear how to use the right arm in swinging per the Magic of the Right Forearm. If you don't believe me....for starters, reference 6-B-2-0 where Homer says ....Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, THE MUSCLES OF BOTH FOREARMS, any---or all---are available to actuate this Assembly.
Today, I realized, I have come full circle....I'm back to the golf article that got me started in TGM. The answer was there the whole time....what an interesting revelation.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-28-2007 at 09:41 PM.
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