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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
Not much clubface rotation, short backswing, straightening of the right arm through impact, angled hinging.
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
Can you tell me how you see him as a hitter and why.
To me it appears he is a swinger but I would be interested to hear how you came to your conclusion.
Thanks
"Hitting is pushing and Swinging is pulling" - Homer Kelley
In Frame 5 - Top (8-6):
Bobby has assembled his Power Package just a touch over the Top classification 10-21-A. In fact, it looks like the camera is looking 'up' to Bobby and could be causing the illusion.
Look at his clubface - it is not turned to the plane like a swinger's clubface would. This is a giveaway to the use of the Strong Single Action 10-18-C of the Left Wrist Action component.
The clubface at the top also reveals the use of an Angled Hinge per 10-10-C. However, that alone does not differentiate between Hitter or Swinger per 10-19-0.
However as evidenced later in Frame 11, he still executes a Finish Swivel per 4-D-0. Swingers have a start-up swivel, swivel to impact and a finish swivel. Hitters only have a finish swivel.
His clubshaft favors a vertical look. This is perfect for the Drive Loading(10-19-A) procedure of a hitter. Per 7-19, "Clubhead Lag....by resisting the Backstroke motion for Drive Loading." The right elbow is loaded instead of the left wrist for swingers.
Per 7-3, "...the Right Forearm should be precisely in-line with - and directly opposed to the entire Primary Lever Assembly...".
As an instructor, I would like to see his right elbow be more perpendicular to his right forearm.
Per 10-11-0-3, the top side of the shaft is not against Bobby's first knuckle of the forefinger - the aft of the shaft is against his #3 pressure point.
Frame 7 - Downstroke (8-8 )
Per 10-3-0, "Major Basic Strokes are classified according to Elbow Position during the Stroke (7-3) and every Stroke must use one of the three."
Bobby is using the Punch Basic stroke per 10-3-A. "From a "down-and-at-the-side" Elbow position, whether the Elbow is touching the Body or not, a straight-line Right Hand Punch is delivered through Impact (6-E)". Please compare the pictorial references in 8-8 and 10-3-A against Frame 7.
Frame 8 - Release (8-9)
It could be that Bobby is using a snap release but per 6-R-0, "...Automatic and Non-Automatic Releases are equally available to both Hitters and Swingers and that many will find Hitting very satisfying even if - and maybe even because - it can accomodate any amount of effort one cares to expend on it."
Finally, in 6-H-0-E, "Associate the following with 'Hitting' (10-19-A)" This serves as a very useful 'line in the sand'...
After I wrote my previous post, I got thinking and went and got his book. He describes the downstroke as the pulling of the club and at the moment of truth to pour it on with the right hand.
To be honest I thought the pictures supported swinging.
I believe these are posed pictures so I am not sure we get a real accurate understanding of the actual stroke but a modified picture of what the golfer positions himself for at times.
Anyway I would submit that the forearm alignment is closer IMO to supporting the secondary assembly.
The length of the back stroke since posed could be restricted but I am not sure that it needs to be any longer to classified as a swinger.
I think the same holds true regarding identifying the 10-3 type since the following frame does not IMO support either. Either there needs to be some elbow bend/right wrist bend or the elbow needs to be a bit more foreward. Frame gives me the impressin that the shaft is vertical to the ground to support 10-3a else it might be 10-3b just not very deep. Too hard for me to tell
I think he is showing a bit of down stroke or float loading, which would explain why the club appears to be more vertical than horizontal at the top.
I am very interested in your comment regarding club face alignment and hinging. I need to do (continue) studying, I wasn't aware that you could identify hinging at the top. This is quite curious to me as you can have any of the hinging in Basic and Acquire Motion without reaching the top. Can you expand on this or point to some more references.
In Frame 5 - Top (8-6):
Bobby has assembled his Power Package just a touch over the Top classification 10-21-A. In fact, it looks like the camera is looking 'up' to Bobby and could be causing the illusion.
Bobby may or may not be a Hitter...
But one thing is for sure:
He is Loading at the End (10-21-C) not the Top. Why? Because his Hands are above his right shoulder at the Top (8-6). Yes, the camera might be looking up a little bit, but look how far his Hands are above his Head. The camera cannot produce this kind of illusion!
Not to threadjack my own thread, but would that be an example of a double shift in the stroke sequence. Elbow plane to turned shoulder plane(?) back to elbow plane. Is that right?
Thanks,
Kevin
I reckon so ... in strictest terms the shift is of the sweetspot plane ( ie. clubhead sweetspot to PP3 location) rather than shaft plane - always hard to work out from a non perfect set of images , just off down-the-line view - but shaft appears to double shift.
The definition of hitting versus swinging is based on how force is applied to club - push or pull.
All other component variables are associated with or optimise a hit or swing pattern but are compatible with both.
Static photos enable us to identify components that are better suited to hit or swing BUT do not give us the answer re. whether he is pushing or pulling.
I suspect that he is swinging with a number of components that are better suited( in most players, but maybe not Bobby - he has right to customise) to hitting.
It is always a joy to read Comdpa's posts - eloquent argument so well structured! but force application ...can we really tell? I am not sure... discuss.
He is Loading at the End (10-21-C) not the Top. Why? Because his Hands are above his right shoulder at the Top (8-6). Yes, the camera might be looking up a little bit, but look how far his Hands are above his Head. The camera cannot produce this kind of illusion!
Thanks for the clarification Leo...I said 'could'...
After I wrote my previous post, I got thinking and went and got his book. He describes the downstroke as the pulling of the club and at the moment of truth to pour it on with the right hand.
To be honest I thought the pictures supported swinging.
I believe these are posed pictures so I am not sure we get a real accurate understanding of the actual stroke but a modified picture of what the golfer positions himself for at times.
Right you are my friend...I would have preferred a video clip so that I can stop it at the 12 sections as defined by TGM. As to whether they are posed, I am not so sure, as Bobby does hit the ball in frames 9 & 10.
Anyway I would submit that the forearm alignment is closer IMO to supporting the secondary assembly.
I agree with you completely on that. I would like to point out that I didnt cite Bobby as a posterboy (i.e. perfect representation) of Hitting. I just said it was a classic, ok maybe that wasnt too appropriate - how about 'nice'?
Mr. Kelley says that there are quadrillion correct patterns. Though it is nice to be able to conform to the preferred patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0; some of us cant.
I am loathe to say this, but although Bobby doesnt comply to 12-1-0, that doesnt make his stroke less correct. I mean afterall the man still found a way to make it on tour.
If one's stroke patterns does not contain conflicting variations, I dont see why it cant work for them. Per 3-A, "...allow for psychological needs and preferences too."
The length of the back stroke since posed could be restricted but I am not sure that it needs to be any longer to classified as a swinger.
With regards to Leo's comments about the Power Package Assembly Point being assemble at End; the hitter certainly can do that - but he need not.
I think the same holds true regarding identifying the 10-3 type since the following frame does not IMO support either. Either there needs to be some elbow bend/right wrist bend or the elbow needs to be a bit more foreward. Frame gives me the impressin that the shaft is vertical to the ground to support 10-3a else it might be 10-3b just not very deep. Too hard for me to tell
I think he is showing a bit of down stroke or float loading, which would explain why the club appears to be more vertical than horizontal at the top.
Per 10-19-0, "Float Loading can be either one."
Float loading is not the same as Drive Load or Drag Load. I have heard some very knowledgeable TGMers say that it (Float Loading) should not have been classified together with Drive and Drag.
Also per 4-D-1, "Hitters, especially, must learn to straighten the Right Arm without flattening the Right Wrist...Then learn to "float", from The Top through Impact, an inert, unstressed Right Wrist with its Impact Fix degree of Bend."
I am very interested in your comment regarding club face alignment and hinging. I need to do (continue) studying, I wasn't aware that you could identify hinging at the top. This is quite curious to me as you can have any of the hinging in Basic and Acquire Motion without reaching the top. Can you expand on this or point to some more references.
Sure we can. Per the glossary, Hinge Action, "The blade of a hinge is always vertical to its Plane of Rotation."
Because Angled Hinging takes place on its own plane of motion, there is to be a no turn or roll feel - per 7-10, "Rhythm in both directions."
If you execute a Single Wrist Action per 10-18-C correctly, the clubface will be 'shut' ala Paul Azinger and Bobby Nichols.
A Standard Wrist Action per 10-18-A, "...the Wrist is Turned and Cocked (FCT) during the Backstroke..."
Note that you are asking about Hinge Action only and not whether the player is swinging or hitting. One can most certainly swing from a 'shut' face at the top, he only needs to consciously resist the tendency of Centrifugal Force toward Horizontal Hinging (10-19-0).
What little I know from static pictures I have shared...the ideal would be of course high speed clips. But...
Hi Martee...
For ease of reading and referencing, I have typed my answers in BOLD above.
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