Medical Model Posture vs. Functional

[birdie_man]

Ha. Baddeley looks like he's gonna fall over.

[Martee]

Martee..great pic...

Neutral spine is not functional in the game of G.O.L.F

I guess I would like your explanation as to why it isn't. The alignment of the spine and posture has impact on G.O.L.F. components, both statically and dynamically including balance.

[annikan skywalker]

One of my colleagues asked an expert in the field who is the founder of Peak Performance how many players on the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour set up with your recommended "Neurtral Spine"...The expert replied " Not One!"...the PGA Professional said "Thank You" and then proceeded to sit down witha silent ovation from his colleagues...

Can you hold the gaze of the object(ball) in the center of the fovial field with neutral spine?

Are the Eyes and Ears vital in relationship to balance and stability?

Is the Spine divided into Cervical, Thoracic, Lumbar & Sacral Segments?

Does everyone have the same "everyday posture"?



Is posture Learned/Conditoned?

How many "experts" have won major torurnaments?

Here's a small sample of some quantifiable measurements?

Cervial Spine....20 degrees of Flexion
Thoracic Spine....20 degrees of Flexion
Lumbar Spine...20 degrees of Flexion
Sacrum....Slight External Rotation


As you can see...hardly neutral spine....

Use a 2 Leighton Flexometers an the Truth will reveal that in G.O.L.F. the spine is hardly neutral!!!




How many of these cats have "Neutral Spine?"

For the Data freaks out there!!!

[Martee]

I am sorry I asked the question, it is obvious that by the response that there is no answer forth coming. The use of PGA and LPGA pro's in itself is not an answer.

For I ask how many PGA and LPGA pro's have an uncompensated golf swing as defined in either of the two TGM stroke patterns? The fact that none exist doesn't mean it is not part of the G.O.L.F., only that individuals have choosen variations.

[annikan skywalker]

No need to apologize ...the photos tell the truth...This is not a personal opinion type of thing....Look at the photos study them and come you your own conclusions...

"Not One".....is in neutral spine! or is there?

Martee..no need to take it personal...just backing my post up with photos and data...just means that I'm not making this up in my own little mind...and how many PGA pros or PT's have gone into this depth...I know a few of them...I'm not alone here!!!


To answer your question...directly... the Spine Angle at address and the Spine angle at Impact are not the same therefore dynamically...always changing throughout the stroke....and those are the Facts..not my Opinion


BTW..proper teminology would Angles of the Spine...not The Spine Angle....since there are 4 sections of the Spine that are to be measured

[Martee]

Obvously not an expert in this field, me that is.

From my limited research and reading and attempting to adopt the TGM philosophy of the uncompensated stroke I submit the following...

1. Static posture (standing in this case), neutral spine, will define for an individual the optimal relationships.

2. Dynamic posture will maintain the optimal relationships (spacial and temporal) for instantaneous axis rotation of any/all working joints. That is if done correctly.

3. Angle of the spine at address will differ from the angle at impact unless the address position is the Fix Address (probably never be the same but close).

4. Angle of the spine at Impact in theory can be pre-define for any golfer based on
a. The golfer intends to use the golf club as it is designed
b. The golfers physical traits (height, arm length, etc) are taken into account.

5. Angle of the spine at Address is more a function of what the golfer has learned so the Impact position can be obtained with the selected components being employed.

Traits of the Neutral Spine can be found in many golf writings when defining the address position.

It seems to me that as in other activities as well if you have a known starting point, the neutral spine, that moving into the address and impact positions, it will simplify achieving the alignments that the golfer is striving to achieve. Rather than create a situation where the golfer must fabricate movements, the golfer can have natural movements intended to maintain.

Just some thoughts. Oh, my question what how does the neutral spine relate which is what I have attempted to give my thoughts on. Also I keyed on the title Medical..

[lagster]

One of my colleagues asked an expert in the field who is the founder of Peak Performance how many players on the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour set up with your recommended "Neurtral Spine"...The expert replied " Not One!"...the PGA Professional said "Thank You" and then proceeded to sit down witha silent ovation from his colleagues...

Can you hold the gaze of the object(ball) in the center of the fovial field with neutral spine?

Are the Eyes and Ears vital in relationship to balance and stability?

Is the Spine divided into Cervical, Thoracic, Lumbar & Sacral Segments?

Does everyone have the same "everyday posture"?



Is posture Learned/Conditoned?

How many "experts" have won major torurnaments?

Here's a small sample of some quantifiable measurements?

Cervial Spine....20 degrees of Flexion
Thoracic Spine....20 degrees of Flexion
Lumbar Spine...20 degrees of Flexion
Sacrum....Slight External Rotation


As you can see...hardly neutral spine....

Use a 2 Leighton Flexometers an the Truth will reveal that in G.O.L.F. the spine is hardly neutral!!!




How many of these cats have "Neutral Spine?"

For the Data freaks out there!!!

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Good information Annikan!

It is obvious that none of the players' pictures has the NEUTRAL SPINE. Tiger Woods is the closest, but if you look at his IMPACT alignments, his eyes have moved considerably from the address posture, his head has dropped, and his upper spine has rounded out.

Now... there is a difference between the pictures here, and the pictures of many amateur golfers. These tour players have an athletic look to them. The amateurs often have VERY excessive curves of the upper spine, and have the tail bone tucked under them.

I suppose some of the players that have very poor posture... can sometimes get into better postures(that end up looking similar to the pro pictures) by trying to get NEUTRAL. However, how many of these people are actually hindered, by radically departing from their NATURALLY BEST POSTURE?

Another reason often given for the NEUTRAL POSTURE is to promote a bigger spinal rotation on the backswing and downswing.

However... all the players pictured, have good, if not huge shoulder turns. The lowered head, and slightly curved upper spine, does not seem to hinder them.

What do you think?

[annikan skywalker]

Now ..one thing in this discussion that has been overlooked is "Neutral Pelvis"...Neutral Pelvis is approximatley 30 degrees...and if you've ever looked at a lot of golf postures they range from 20- 40 degrees of waist bend...Coincidence???


I can not stress the importance of the ears as a marker and the tailbone location as a marker...take a look at the pics.....positioning of the ears....rotation of the pelvis locating the tailbone...

[djd]

Nicklaus' posture was obviously highly functional but in light of his recent comments probably not bio-mechanically optimal ... When asked this Monday if he has any plans to play another tour event, Nicklaus shook his head and replied, "Maybe if I get a new body," he said. "I've lost three inches of height. My vertebrae sit one on top of the other, so I just can't move. I have no ability to turn or do anything else."

Which posture for the average sized - height, limbs, etc - golfer and motion offers the best alignment of the spine in terms of efficiency of result and safeguard from injury? thanks.

[lagster]

Now ..one thing in this discussion that has been overlooked is "Neutral Pelvis"...Neutral Pelvis is approximatley 30 degrees...and if you've ever looked at a lot of golf postures they range from 20- 40 degrees of waist bend...Coincidence???


I can not stress the importance of the ears as a marker and the tailbone location as a marker...take a look at the pics.....positioning of the ears....rotation of the pelvis locating the tailbone...

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Neutral pelvis? How is Mr. Baddeley's pelvis situated in relation to NEUTRAL in the picture posted? Which pro's pictures have a neutral pelvis?

Don't SOME the back problems of Mr. Nicklaus show up more from the face-on view? He had/has the "reverse C".