Analysis

[lagster]

Do you think the term "plane shift" is apt when what most /all people do ( including Leadbetter - hence your X classification) is a "plane drift"?

Plane angle can readily be defined at 4 points in all swings.

1. Address

2. Left arm horizontal to ground

3. Top/end of backstroke

4. Impact

plus maybe Follow through/ both arms straight.

Most golfers ( I would argue all golfers) drift planes between these positions. During drift the butt/end of club rarely points at target line unless the drift happens rapidly around clubshaft horizontal ( and therefore ideally parallel to plane line).

Leadbetter people basically are double shifters - categorised by their address / impact location and top/end of backstroke positions. They may drift a bit more than others off TGM plane at left arm horizontal but 90 % of people drift not shift!

.................................................. ..

I think I understand what you are saying about PLANE DRIFT. Some do seem to do as you describe.

An extreme example of this, I believe, would be the PLANE philosophy of Don Trahan, known as THE SWING SURGEON. He wants the butt of the club to point at the LINE YOUR TOES ARE ON, throughout the BACKSWING, and most of the DOWNSWING. His son, D.J. Trahan, on the P.G.A. Tour, does appear to do something like this.

He teaches a variation of a SWINGING PROCEDURE, and some of his students do very well. His technique is supposed to be easier on the back.

[Mathew]

How many "TGM shifters" truly have their tip/butt ends really pointing at a single plane line during the shift?

Well strictly speaking none of them because the butt end of the club doesn't exactly point at the plane line unless the sweetspot has rotated and thereby putting the shaft onplane as well as the longitudinal center of gravity.

Unless it happens near instantaneously around club horizontal to the ground/parallel to plane line then a shift is almost always off plane until it re-establishes a pointing-at-the-plane-line position.

These are not the precision alignments of the golfing machine. It is merely offplane. Whilst you can get away with being offplane in the backstroke, find an alternate downstroke plane or readjust at the top back to where you should be, this is not the prefered way. On the downstroke you must be in a position to drive the clubhead to a point on the plane line. Even with a plane shift, the force goes downplane towards the line on a plane and is one of the three essentials..

That is what I mean by drift - a gradual off plane movement which is needed to re-establish on plane shaft/sweetspot plane after a shift.

Or you could do it the proper way and shift and be onplane whilst your preforming the shift at the same time. The plane line does not change, the plane angle is adjustable....otherwise the clubhead orbit becomes 3 dimensional and the precision vanishes.

[Martee]

Do you think the term "plane shift" is apt when what most /all people do ( including Leadbetter - hence your X classification) is a "plane drift"?

Plane angle can readily be defined at 4 points in all swings.

1. Address

2. Left arm horizontal to ground

3. Top/end of backstroke

4. Impact

plus maybe Follow through/ both arms straight.

Most golfers ( I would argue all golfers) drift planes between these positions. During drift the butt/end of club rarely points at target line unless the drift happens rapidly around clubshaft horizontal ( and therefore ideally parallel to plane line).

Leadbetter people basically are double shifters - categorised by their address / impact location and top/end of backstroke positions. They may drift a bit more than others off TGM plane at left arm horizontal but 90 % of people drift not shift!

Why the left arm horizontal as a definition point?

If we are talking about the club being on plane, I would have expected the definition points, a more universal set, would be the club, not the left arm....

[Mathew]

Why the left arm horizontal as a definition point?

If we are talking about the club being on plane, I would have expected the definition points, a more universal set, would be the club, not the left arm....

Yup totally agree here Martee

Infact stopping at any point on the backstroke or downstroke the club should be on a plane. Predefined points is position golf, geometrical alignments is alignment golf.

Interestingly leadbetters procedure is an underplane shoulder turn takeaway which then shifts to another steeper offplane plane that also passes between through two onplane planes at parallel...can't see the logic myself . Now on the downstroke he wants you to shift from that offplane plane to another offplane plane parallel above the hands only plane before getting to the elbow plane... ok then.....

I like what Moe Norman said about him "artificial strokes for artificial folks"....

[golfbulldog]

.................................................. ..

I think I understand what you are saying about PLANE DRIFT. Some do seem to do as you describe.

An extreme example of this, I believe, would be the PLANE philosophy of Don Trahan, known as THE SWING SURGEON. He wants the butt of the club to point at the LINE YOUR TOES ARE ON, throughout the BACKSWING, and most of the DOWNSWING. His son, D.J. Trahan, on the P.G.A. Tour, does appear to do something like this.

He teaches a variation of a SWINGING PROCEDURE, and some of his students do very well. His technique is supposed to be easier on the back.

Have heard of the son but not the father.

What I am saying is that all players are on plane at address(plane angle usually hands or elbow), most good players are on a different plane angle at end ( TSP or squared shoulder) therefore there has been a plane angle variation.

I know TGM says that ideally club remains on plane even during shift but i basically wonder how many really do achieve this on the backstroke... i think some get very close, most will be less precise.

I used the term "drift" to describe those that meander off plane during most of backswing ( these would be all club-pointing-at-toe-line people etc). I do not mean to suggest that ,as far as TGM swing ideal is concerned, "shift" is wrong.

Just that most swings go off plane sometimes in backstroke and still get on a plane angle at top/end. The left arm horizontal (artificial as it is and I take all Martee and Matthew's points on board) catches most people "mid drift" or as they say "off plane - double shift x classification).

Not making too much out of it, just putting out thoughts...

[EdZ]

I've said it many times, but I think all the talk of 'plane' is lacking the proper perspective

The HANDS

The plane is defined by the hands and the sweetspot

What Trahan advocates is based on this I would say. A steep plane angle of the path of the hands.

The club follows what the hands tell it, so monitor the plane of the hands (not the same as the 'hands only' plane in TGM)

[lagster]

I've said it many times, but I think all the talk of 'plane' is lacking the proper perspective

The HANDS

The plane is defined by the hands and the sweetspot

What Trahan advocates is based on this I would say. A steep plane angle of the path of the hands.

The club follows what the hands tell it, so monitor the plane of the hands (not the same as the 'hands only' plane in TGM)

////////////////////////////////////////

Don Trahan actually wants the laser device that shines out of the butt of the club to point to the line the toes are on... throughout the backswing, and most of the downswing. He thinks it is incorrect to point at the baseline, or sweetspot plane.

Now... I know there are people that play very well that do either of these, and those that are in between.

I don't have the capability, but why don't we put some pictures up of a variety of players, and see what they are doing here. Camera angle of course, may make some difference here.

[lagster]

Maybe someone that knows... can post the Mr.Hank Haney pattern?
So far I think we have Mr. Jimmy Ballard, and Mr. David Leadbetter attempted.

[davel]

Wouldn't your hands have to be touching your body for the laser to even point to the toe line before you ever swing. The shaft would have to be a putter angle. I have read his book and seen him on the golf channel and basically as I understood the swing is was a very upright swing with width and a houlder turn of about 75 degrees and he wanted the swing to be no longer than a 3/4 swing. His son goes farther than what he teaches and he states on the golf channel he constantlly wants the swing shorter. The theory is you will always get good contact and you will only lose a small distance.

Dave

////////////////////////////////////////

Don Trahan actually wants the laser device that shines out of the butt of the club to point to the line the toes are on... throughout the backswing, and most of the downswing. He thinks it is incorrect to point at the baseline, or sweetspot plane.

Now... I know there are people that play very well that do either of these, and those that are in between.

I don't have the capability, but why don't we put some pictures up of a variety of players, and see what they are doing here. Camera angle of course, may make some difference here.

[lagster]

Wouldn't your hands have to be touching your body for the laser to even point to the toe line before you ever swing. The shaft would have to be a putter angle. I have read his book and seen him on the golf channel and basically as I understood the swing is was a very upright swing with width and a houlder turn of about 75 degrees and he wanted the swing to be no longer than a 3/4 swing. His son goes farther than what he teaches and he states on the golf channel he constantlly wants the swing shorter. The theory is you will always get good contact and you will only lose a small distance.

Dave

////////////////////////////////////////

With his swing you first go to the 1st parallel... in the backswing(shaft parallel to the plane line), then you go very vertical with the arms(butt of club pointing to the toe line). About 70 degree shoulder turn. He does like a flat left wrist.

He says his technique is easier on the back... because of less shoulder turn.