I changed my mind. This is one of the Best Threads of all time!!!!.
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"The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you."
MARTEE:
"Top two pictures, something is out of whack. The backgrounds which should be static are not the same. I...The camera in one is higher than the other, and also closer."
MANZELLA: The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?
The ball position is almost exact, so the angle is the same for reference sake. And at the top of THIS swing, Hogan's head is NOT PRECISELY IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS FEET!
MARTEE:
"Again there is a difference between frames regarding the background and your red line is definitely not in the same place if you use the background as a reference."
MANZELLA: Nope. It is not in a squence (see above). But the two picture were lined up PERFECTLY in Photoshop and the ball and the red line are EXACTLY THE SAME!!!
Hogan, simply turned around his spine on this day.
MARTEE:
The Tom's pictures...blah, blah, blah....
MANZELLA: Very shortly, on my new site, Mike Finney will post his entire swing video collection.
Trust me, Mike numbers are dead on.
But, like I said....go ahead and put your head precisely between your feet and keep it there.
Just take a set square , put it close to your screen and put it in line with Mr Hogan's right foot . You can check that everything is OK with the backgrounds (can you see the right foot in line with this dark spot in the trees? and the white spot in the middle of the right calf?) .
I didn't check the other sequences. It's up to you
Thank you Brian to remind us that sometimes facts (and pictures) must be compared to concepts.
phimaynard - look at post #32 in this thread, I placed lines on the photos. That should be sufficent to show that they are not accurately representing what is being claimed for those photos.
phimaynard - look at post #32 in this thread, I placed lines on the photos. That should be sufficent to show that they are not accurately representing what is being claimed for those photos.
OKPlace your Own lines on this sequence , well known on this site (the gallery )
I personally mesure 1,5 mm (sorry Im French) of backward moving from the center of the head to the vertical of the ball, in the backswing, and 1,5 mm frontward (from the adress position) in the downswing and followthrough. Due to the scale of the image the total moving of the head is approximatively 9 cm. Everybody can appreciate in the same time the movement of the hips. In such conditions a steady head seems to be a restrictive object.
One of the possible effects of a centered head is a reverse pivot(in real world teaching as Brian might say!).
What do you say to the reverse pivot guy when you give him a lesson?
What does Vicki have to say from a physical/biomechanics standpoint?
I say this due to seminars I did with Greg Rose(head of the Titleist Performance Institute) who said that 80% of back injuries in golf are related to a reverse pivot or reverse spine angle.
I know you came back from back injuries so I AM very interested in the personal changes you made to redress those issues, but I'm also very interested about the possible ramifications for your students, good and bad?
We talked to a Hogan expert today, Brent White, the Head Professional at Hogan's club, Shady Oaks, who both doubted the Hogan letter and confirmed the head movement.
So what?
We know that the Hall-of-Fame has head movers and non-movers in it.
Lynn feels like any—and I mean any—deviation from what Homer told him was ideal, is....not in his best interest.
I agree. Lynn NEEDS to teach this way and ONLY this way. This makes Lynn, Lynn.
And, thankfully, there is a Lynn.
I will continue to teach both "through the head" and "base of the neck" centers.
Just an interested bystander here, but what say you?
EC
We're here...lurking....observing..learning...
The "eyes" are what stay centered in the tripod ...
You see a camera sets atop of a tripod in the center...right...well you can rotate the camera clockwise and it would appear to move to the right while staying perfectly centered..In the case of "The human camera"... the lens of the camera can move along the "horizontal axis of the eyes" and while maintaining a centered gaze keeping the object in the middle of the fovial...The pictures Mr.Manzella drew with Mac O'Grady show this camera rotating clockwise which gives the appearance of the head moving to the right ..but just 20 degrees of neck rotation ...meanwhile the eyes are moving along the horizontal axis in the opposite direction...
Now I'm not gettin into this pissin match....Whether it's the
1.) Eyes
2.) Head
3.) Top of the Spine between the Shoulders
A true MORAD guy knows that all the above adjustable pending on the particular ball flight...
This is a TGM...Forum...I thought it was funny in the Glossary when it used to say..."Chosing the Head" instead of the corrected version of "Choosing the Head"...
Does this imply a "Choice"??????????????????
Uh oh.....Choice means variation to me......
But I know where Master Yoda stands ...and I support his Posture on this....
As well as Mr. Manzella...great points and great pics
I guess I sleep in more than one camp.....
I did not expect 3 pictures of Snead to escalate into a forest fire...I'll contribute some kerosene to help put the fire out!!!
We talked to a Hogan expert today, Brent White, the Head Professional at Hogan's club, Shady Oaks, who both doubted the Hogan letter and confirmed the head movement.
So what?
We know that the Hall-of-Fame has head movers and non-movers in it.
Lynn feels like any—and I mean any—deviation from what Homer told him was ideal, is....not in his best interest.
I agree. Lynn NEEDS to teach this way and ONLY this way. This makes Lynn, Lynn.
And, thankfully, there is a Lynn.
I will continue to teach both "through the head" and "base of the neck" centers.
I am VERY SORRY that Ted Fort had a tough time with the idea. As well as having trouble with a double shift, swinging, etc.
Ted, I think your swing is a good one, but I have NO DOUBT that I—as well as many others—could have taught you to have a through-the-neck pivot center and made you into a very good player, like you are.
The idea wasn't the problem. Spending 10 years suffering to break 80 by moving my ^%#^#@ head and double shifting was the problem. The only reason I could break 80 then was because I could and can make everything when a putter's in my hands. I thought I was getting good TGM instruction before I met Lynn, but later found I was getting someone's take on TGM. It was a take that didn't even include a hitting procedure. This person (not Brian Manzella, so no false rumors lower this thread) said, "through our research, (in other words, not Homer's) we've found that your right eye needs to be over your right foot at the top of your swing. Additionally, shifting isn't a problem as long as you stay in between shaft plane and somewhere around shoulder plane." As a result, I couldn't play dead in a western movie.
When I moved closer to 1-L, I played better. In fact, I was infinitely better. I am, by no means, perfect. But I will guarantee you that I have fewer moving parts, and as a result, better consistency. My search WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE for an uncompensated stroke. As a result, I play better than I've ever played and have the scores to prove it. I tried going down the road of letting someone else convince me that they were smarter than Homer and had better ideas. If Homer says anything is an "ideal" or chooses one component over another, I accept his assessment. If anyone was ever thorough about anything, it was Homer. I was fooled once, but I'm smart enough not to be fooled twice. It was a blessing to meet someone like Lynn that's not trying to re-write Homer's work. And I'm not saying that you, Brian, are trying to do so. But if the Albert Eienstein of golf tells me that something is "recommended" and a guy from Louisiana tells me to do it differently, I'll have to choose the author of the book. I'm not trying to slight you because I think you're a good teacher. But, I think Homer got it right over, and over, and over, and over...................
In all honesty, the only area that I heard from you and that I would have a real problem implementing was the exaggerated finish swivel that had the clubface laying horizontal to the ground. I think that's a good thing for someone that steers to try to do, but I wouldn't have them do it in reality. Other than that, I think we had many more areas of agreement than disagreement.
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