Hook, line, & sinker?

[annikan skywalker]

Geez...you guys ought to be lawyers!

[Mike O]

Mike o..

Thank you for your distintion and clarification!!!

Clubshaft can travel on, or to- and from, either Plane because Clubshaft rotation must be around the Sweetspot - not vice versa.

So what is the means by which the shaft can travel on, or to and from?

Does it differ for swinging and hitting...If so...Why and How


I would love to hear what Dr. Collards has to say!!!!


BTW there is a Shaft Plane and a Sweetspot plane so the people who are referring to the Clubshaft are referring to the visible plane but Homer was referring to the invisible sweetspot plane

There are many planes.....There is not a "The PLANE" situation here...
AS

I'll try to post a more detailed post on this in the next couple of weeks- if things work out, but for now.

The means is that - the shaft is in a subservient role- it has a direct relationship with the lcg but can only follow the lcg, the lcg is the controlling force.

Does it differ from hitting to swinging? No, the straight line shaft rotates around the lcg regardless of whether your hitting or swinging. However, in a more isolated observation of shaft flexing activity - there definitely is a difference in shaft reaction to hitting versus swinging. For example, at impact the swinger would have more clubhead droop and the hitter would have more clubhead bow (prestressed clubshaft), based on the different acceleration methods used.

[Mike O]

anyone?

Is the Turned Shoulder plane the angle that runs through the shoulder and baseline of the plane no matter where the shoulder stops or gets to in the backstroke?

YES-That's right.

[ChrisNZ]

Looks like Immanuel Kant is now posting on the forum- (had to point that out for those philosophy students - couldn't resist.)

Mike O.

yes, but are we talking about the swing as a thing-in-itself, or merely it's appearance? Now stop critiquing my pure reason!!!

Anyway, back to golf: I wouldn't agree that the right shoulder is back on Plane at the both arms straight - Follow Through position. For example, at impact the right shoulder is usually significantly off the plane- but the right forearm is on plane - as the right arm is bent. From impact to follow-through the hands stay on plane and the right arm becomes straight- but during that period from impact to follow-through the right shoulder doesn't drop down to the plane to create the straight right arm, rather the elbow comes up off the plane until the right arm is straight. So during release the right elbow is below plane, at impact it is on plane and during the follow-through it is above plane.

Mike O.

What does this do to the magic of the right forearm - how can the right forearm trace if the right elbow is off plane? Or does the right elbow (and hence forearm) move through multiple planes, but remain on (a) plane to the plane's baseline (that really does sound like Kant!)

By the way Mike, I usally find your posts pretty phenomenal... noumenal even!

Chris

[Mike O]

yes, but are we talking about the swing as a thing-in-itself, or merely it's appearance? Now stop critiquing my pure reason!!!



What does this do to the magic of the right forearm - how can the right forearm trace if the right elbow is off plane? Or does the right elbow (and hence forearm) move through multiple planes, but remain on (a) plane to the plane's baseline (that really does sound like Kant!)

By the way Mike, I usally find your posts pretty phenomenal... noumenal even!

Chris

Chris,
Nice catch on the philosophy and the golf! You're right on in regards to your comments and questions regarding the right forearm. You caught me! I'm not sure you really can trace the forearm- I mean you can, and/or you feel like you can but I'm not really sure in a "good" golf stroke that the right forearm does or needs to stay on plane for any extended period going back or coming down. The hands and clubshaft - yes! Just my take.

Mike O.

[nevermind]

thanks Mike

Homer:
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, estblishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."

If the downsing has plane shifts, which plane angle is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane?

Given that the shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at the end of the backstroke, no matter which shoulder turn is used, how can the rear shoulder move downplane at startdown, on anything but that plane?

Changed the quotation to include all both my questions. Now, I'm dying here, whats the deal!

[tongzilla]

Chris,
Nice catch on the philosophy and the golf! You're right on in regards to your comments and questions regarding the right forearm. You caught me! I'm not sure you really can trace the forearm- I mean you can, and/or you feel like you can but I'm not really sure in a "good" golf stroke that the right forearm does or needs to stay on plane for any extended period going back or coming down. The hands and clubshaft - yes! Just my take.

Mike O.

And I also noticed that the more Trigger Delay one has, the less likely the Right Forearm stays on plane for an extended period from Release to Follow Through.

[tongzilla]

Homer:
"After a 13-B or 12-C Backstroke Shoulder Turn, the Right Shoulder moves toward Impact precisely on the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane, estblishing and supporting the Power Package Delivery alignments."

If the downsing has plane shifts, which plane angle is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane?

Given that the shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at the end of the backstroke, no matter which shoulder turn is used, how can the rear shoulder move downplane at startdown, on anything but that plane?

Your preselected plane will be your Basic Plane Angle (10-6). So if you are shifting from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane on the downstroke your hands and clubshaft should move towards that plane angle. Your Right Shoulder would never move onto the Elbow Plane because it's too shallow.

The rear shoulder can move on, above or below the established Turned Shuolder Plane (angle from ball to right shoulder at the top only, not during downstroke) during startdown.

[nevermind]

I'm still all fogged up.

In that example, shifting in the Downstroke from the Turned Shoulder Plane to the Elbow Plane, which is the preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane (Basic Plane Angle)? Or is the Basic Plane Angle a plane all of its own?

[phillygolf]

philly - I am talking about the 'invisible' plane - which boils down to the plane of 'motion', of forces in the swing. My personal take is that it is far better to simply monitor the path and plane of PP#1 during the entire motion, than to worry about the clubshaft, or to a certain extent, even the sweetspot.

I believe Homer generally refers to the sweetspot plane - as discussed in 2-F. And did you mean pp#3? (just curious).

The club only knows what the HANDS tell it and the ball only knows what the club tells it. By monitoring the path/plane of the hands, the pressure points in the hands, you don't need to worry about the shaft or sweetspot because they will 'follow' what the hands dictate.

But Ed...what if the hands are monitoring the sweetspot during start up? I know for me, an offplane motion has a significantly different feel then onplane. More effort, etc. So....

Does the tail wag the dog or is it the other way around?