Compression?

[donniek]

I'm hoping this will help me understand Hinge Action/Motion (sorry, as I'm still working on my terminology).

If two players wind up at impact separation with the clubhead, face and shaft in the exact same alignments all at the same speed and hitting the ball in the same spot on the face with every other alignment matching with the only difference being that one player arrived there after a Horizontal Hinge action and other player arrived there after a Vertical Hinge Action.

Which shot has better compression and why?

I think they would be the same.

Never really saw a yes or no answer to the original question......

[x-man]

HH action produces more distance when compared to VH action which will cause the ball to get more air. so when talking about compression id say HH action would cause more compression due to the fact that better compression leads to more distance hence HH action

thoughts?

[mb6606]

"If two players wind up at impact separation with the clubhead, face and shaft in the exact same alignments all at the same speed and hitting the ball in the same spot on the face with every other alignment matching"

Read the question as presented.
If the ball is on the clubface for 1/2 a millisecond how they be anything but equal?

[O.B.Left]

"If two players wind up at impact separation with the clubhead, face and shaft in the exact same alignments all at the same speed and hitting the ball in the same spot on the face with every other alignment matching"

Read the question as presented.
If the ball is on the clubface for 1/2 a millisecond how they be anything but equal?

I still maintain that for both Vertical and Horizontal Hinging to both display the same speed as per the original questions requisite "clubhead, face and shaft" (which includes the butt end) you'd have to zero out #3 angle. Zero out the clubhead travel associated with the various Hinge Actions. Normally, given any #3 angle , Horizontal will have a higher clubhead speed associated with any given hand speed. Not to mention the issues of "point of contact" wobble, dynamic layback, closing, etc.

1/2 a millisecond is an eternity for the golf ball. Mb you can clearly see the ball rolling up the face in high speed (compressing , rebounding too).

[Yoda]

Never really saw a yes or no answer to the original question......

If two players wind up at impact separation with the clubhead, face and shaft in the exact same alignments all at the same speed and hitting the ball in the same spot on the face with every other alignment matching with the only difference being that one player arrived there after a Horizontal Hinge action and other player arrived there after a Vertical Hinge Action.

Which shot has better compression and why?

I think they would be the same.

[Color and size emphasis by Yoda.]

And now at last:

Your question is nonsensical because it is based on a specious premise.

spe·cious (spshs)
adj.
1. Having the ring of truth or plausibility but actually fallacious: a specious argument.
2. Deceptively attractive.

Let's back up a bit and help me get this straight:

You think a Clubface could come through the incredibly violent Impact collision in two distinctly different ways -- one Closing Only and the other Laying Back Only -- and, even in just 3/4 of an inch and 4/10,000th of a second, there will be no difference in the Separation alignment?

Study Sketches 2-C-1 #3 and 2-C-2 #3, and learn the truth.

Oh, I forgot, all that Chapter 2 stuff is now just "junk science", right?

Wrong.

Nevermind . . . Let's leave the Land of Oz and head to the practice tee. Watch me hit two delicious little pitch shots. I'll hit both with the same descending blow (Clubshaft Control) and with an identical amount of force (Clubhead Control). Both shots will fly dead straight, but the second will fly distinctly higher than the first. Now . . .

Why would that be?

Answer:

Because, through Impact, my Left Wrist (Clubface Control) executed a totally different Motion. And that totally different Left Wrist Motion produced a totally different Clubface Motion. And that totally different Clubface Motion produced a totally different Separation alignment and Ball Response. Putting it simplistically . . .

Impact matters!

The fact that the ball is fifteen yards down the fairway before the player feels that Impact is immaterial. The pre-selected Left Wrist Motion is programmed as early as the Address Routine for flawless execution through Impact. The work -- the Computer's precision Programming -- was done long before and the Ball's flight is now its manifest result.

In no way does the brevity of Impact obviate the Left Wrist's vital function and predictable result.

It may, however, obscure it.

As apparently it does to those who would deny its role.

[John Graham]

Same deal with layback, the clubface will be more lofted at separation.

O.B.,

Am I understanding this quote correctly that when employing vertical hinging the clubface loft is increasing from impact to separation?

JG

[O.B.Left]

O.B.,

Am I understanding this quote correctly that when employing vertical hinging the clubface loft is increasing from impact to separation?

JG

Yes. Vertical Hinging is layback with no closing. Continuously. Although the collision does wreak havoc upon the underlying geometry and obscures things. The ball hits the face as hard as the face hits the ball.

Reverse it for horizontal .....closing only no layback. Two extremes. Two different ball responses. I do believe it effects ball response. Though the interval is short the dynamics are still present, you'd have to get impact to 0 seconds for it to not have an effect. Sort of like what part of curve is straight or ....

Hey man I wanna know about Aimpoint sometime.

Regards
OB.

[John Graham]

Yes. Vertical Hinging is layback with no closing. Continuously. Although the collision does wreak havoc upon the underlying geometry and obscures things. The ball hits the face as hard as the face hits the ball.

OB.

There are some major issues I have with this idea. With an iron, the ball hits the face below the cog and since momentum must be preserved, the clubhead is deflected lower at separation than it was at impact. It has to deflect downwards thus reducing loft.

Check out this video.

I'm guessing the first one is vertical hinging and you can see it deloft during the impact interval.

JG

[O.B.Left]

There are some major issues I have with this idea. With an iron, the ball hits the face below the cog and since momentum must be preserved, the clubhead is deflected lower at separation than it was at impact. It has to deflect downwards thus reducing loft.

Check out this video.

I'm guessing the first one is vertical hinging and you can see it deloft during the impact interval.

JG

Yes , the collision of impact does have an effect. Some of those look like toe or heal hits which have an effect on the face rotation. Same, as you say with low hits. These sorts of things are obvious to a good golfer , he can feel 'em. These impact dynamics are maybe outside of the real issue at hand in regard to hinge action "real or perceived". I strongly assert that it is very real. The ball rolls on the face. The point of contact for horizontal tends to stay intact whereas for vertical it tends to roll up the face. Loft angle dependent of course. Slow mo film clearly shows the ball climbing the face to my eye.

Without a ball / clubhead collision, the dynamics of hinge action would be readily apparent on film or to the golfer for that matter. Add the collision and things do get obscured on film but the geometry still stands to my mind. Im not a scientist but I do see the effect in my own shot making, thats my proof so to speak.

The ball compresses, rebounds, climbs the face all in a fraction of a second. Its amazingly brief but why discount what the clubface is doing during that time? There are two players, after all. Its not just the ball on its own doing all that, its an interaction.

[Daryl]

There are some major issues I have with this idea. With an iron, the ball hits the face below the cog and since momentum must be preserved, the clubhead is deflected lower at separation than it was at impact. It has to deflect downwards thus reducing loft.

Check out this video.

I'm guessing the first one is vertical hinging and you can see it deloft during the impact interval.

JG

You're observing the Clubface tilting under the Ball. That would be a Lob Shot. It's a special application of Vertical Hinging whose purpose is an almost total loss of compression.

The following quote describes the requirements for Maximum Compression "On the Line of Compression" that only Hinge Action can provide. The Line of Compression may be far from the center of the ball, but maximum compression for that "Line" can be gained by following the Instructions below.

2-C-0 LINEAR FORCE The ball will respond to non-linear (angular) force exactly the same as to linear forces only if the application produce forces equally linear to the ball but not necessarily linear to anything external to the ball.

Briefly stated, it is necessary to find a way to compress the ball through a particular point along a particular line, and maintain this compression through the same particular point along this same particular line straight line, through the entire arc of the Impact Interval, and with geometrical precision for consistent control. Study 2-K and 2-N.

To maintain compression at a particular point that point, then, must rotate around the same center that the rotating force does. Not just the physical center of the ball nor the gravitational center – just the point of compression. In other words, the original contact points of the Clubface and ball must remain in contact throughout the entire Impact Interval. This is possible only if the motion – or arc – is uniform. Therefore there must be a perfectly centered action – or a compensating manipulation.

Most people assume that the Ball "Rolls" up the face of the inclined striker. And, for most people it does and the result is Loss of Compression. Hinge Action Solves that problem by providing a means where-by the contact and separations point remains the same and there-by maximizing the amount of compression for any given Shot or, if you prefer, eliminating compression as with the "Lob Shot".