Shoulder(s) In Relation To Plane...

[comdpa]

Originally Posted by comdpa

What the golf world has not realised so far is that the shoulder turns one way on the backstroke and another on the downstroke.

Hi Compda
Thank you for this post . So I'm not the only one... Shoulders plane (s) is a problem for me for a long time and your post give me a new light.

Merci...

If you were to reference again the Standard Shoulder Turn.

The backstroke would look like this - (as flat as possible)and the downstroke would look like this \ (right shoulder moves downplane)

What I have described is from a down-the-line view.

If shoulder turn on the backstroke and the downstroke "match", then (pray)...for disaster awaits...

[nevermind]

"preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane" simply means the clubshaft on which the player wants to utilise on the downstroke.

If you shift during the Downstroke, which plane is the preselected plane? Or, is there only ever a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in a zero shift Downstroke?

If the Turned Shoulder Plane is the angle from the the plane line up to the rear shoulder at the end of the Backstroke(no matter what type of Shoulder Turn took place), how can the rear shoulder move downplane at start down on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

The "rear shoulder" and "rear forearm" can be in a straight line (with the clubshaft) if one bends the right ("rear) elbow in towards the right hip. It will appear in a straight line if viewed from a "down-the-line" perspective.

I can't picture this comdpa Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?

Another question. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?

[phimaynard]

[quote=Yoda]Thanks, Phimaynard. We do have a terrific crew here, and the site is growing by leaps and bounds. Membership has increased 80 percent in the past two months alone.

This growing is the fruit of your competence and the global spirit of the site (sharing the knowledge, Thanks Compda )
One good exemple is often better than a long argument : your post about Eklington (Steve Elkington's Wonderful Little TGM Stroke) is one of the best golf lesson I have ever had . I printed it and read it almost daily . It helps me to understand how to use the "Yellow book" in the right way. I know that I have still a lot to learn, so, like everybody in this growing community, I will continue to connect everyday, for my greatest pleasure
This is a little gift for you..
[IMG][/IMG]
Thanks
PM

[comdpa]

If you shift during the Downstroke, which plane is the preselected plane? Or, is there only ever a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane in a zero shift Downstroke?

Technically, using ANY plane, whether downstroke or backstroke, if one does not shift from one plane to another, then that means it is a "zero shift" stroke. A zero shift is not limited only to the downstroke.

If on the backstroke I elect to shift from an elbow plane to a turned shoulder plane then that is a shift.

If the Turned Shoulder Plane is the angle from the the plane line up to the rear shoulder at the end of the Backstroke(no matter what type of Shoulder Turn took place), how can the rear shoulder move downplane at start down on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

Sure it can. I merely have to switch planes. In fact, you will see that such shifts are pretty common on Tour. Usually you will see a move from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane. But remember the words of Mr Kelly here. Any plane shift is hazardous.

I can't picture this comdpa Are there any photos or diagrams that could clear this up for me?

Another question. For how long should the rear shoulder move downplane? I see many down the line sequences showing the rear shoulder moving above plane before impact, but few with it remaining on plane to both arms straight. What is ideal?

As regards photos and diagrams, you may need to ask our resident imager Mr Annikan...

You may not like this answer, but the rear shoulder should move downplane as long as it needs to. As I observe in all my students, there is too much around as opposed to "down".

[comdpa]

This is a little gift for you..

PM

Such an awesome pic..WOW!

[nevermind]

Technically, using ANY plane, whether downstroke or backstroke, if one does not shift from one plane to another, then that means it is a "zero shift" stroke. A zero shift is not limited only to the downstroke.

If on the backstroke I elect to shift from an elbow plane to a turned shoulder plane then that is a shift.

Come on man, I knew that... so back to the question. If you make a shift in the downstroke, which plane is the preselected Downstroke CLubshaft Plane, that the shoulder should move precisely on? The plane your shifting from or to? Or is there no preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane if there are shifts in the downstroke?

Sure it can. I merely have to switch planes. In fact, you will see that such shifts are pretty common on Tour. Usually you will see a move from the turned shoulder plane to the elbow plane.

I'm going to assume your talking about the clubshaft here, coz I definitely can't picture the rear shoulder getting down to the elbow plane Should the rear shoulder make plane shifts during the Downstroke? If the rear shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at startdown, no matter what shoulder turn was used, how can it move downplane at startdown on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

You may not like this answer, but the rear shoulder should move downplane as long as it needs to. As I observe in all my students, there is too much around as opposed to "down".

So how do I know how far I need to keep the shoulder on plane for? If it's an individual thing, I guess trial and error is the way to go? How do I know if my bad shots are due to not keeping the shoulder on plane far enough or something else?

[jr33]

I worked with Justin in July and he has helped
me with my pattern, and I always refer to the
videos that we made during lessons. Thanks to everyone at LBG,Manzella,Ben,Gregg and anybody involved spreading the word of TGM. I would have never been able to make sense of TGM without these great sites.

[comdpa]

Come on man, I knew that... so back to the question. If you make a shift in the downstroke, which plane is the preselected Downstroke CLubshaft Plane, that the shoulder should move precisely on? The plane your shifting from or to? Or is there no preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane if there are shifts in the downstroke?

I'm going to assume your talking about the clubshaft here, coz I definitely can't picture the rear shoulder getting down to the elbow plane Should the rear shoulder make plane shifts during the Downstroke? If the rear shoulder is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at startdown, no matter what shoulder turn was used, how can it move downplane at startdown on anything but the Turned Shoulder Plane?

So how do I know how far I need to keep the shoulder on plane for? If it's an individual thing, I guess trial and error is the way to go? How do I know if my bad shots are due to not keeping the shoulder on plane far enough or something else?

My apologies "nevermind"...

I read your question wrongly and thus came up with a wrong answer. We are on the wrong pages.

You were referencing "shoulders" only and I referenced at times "shoulders" and "clubshaft".

When I referred to "shifts" I was referring to "plane angle shifts". Per 10-6-B, "any Plane Angle Shift is very hazardous"

You are asking which "clubshaft plane" that the "shoulders" should move on.

Per 7-13 "When the Shoulder moves on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands it provides its greatest support and its best guidance to the stroke."

This would be the "Turned Shoulder Plane" 10-6-B, "which has far better performance characteristics than any other".

And it may not be the answer you want.

Per 7-13, a tip-off to bad shots created by improper shoulder motion is the non-existence of a "followthrough" 8-11

[nevermind]

Per 7-13, a tip-off to bad shots created by improper shoulder motion is the non-existence of a "followthrough" 8-11

thanks compda

I might try a pm to Yoda for the other questions. I never seem to get anywhere on this topic

If you ever see an image showing the rear shoulder, forearm and clubshaft all on the same plane, during a normal golf shot and without a straight rear arm, please let me know . Push Elbow doesn't count

[comdpa]

thanks compda

I might try a pm to Yoda for the other questions. I never seem to get anywhere on this topic

If you ever see an image showing the rear shoulder, forearm and clubshaft all on the same plane, during a normal golf shot and without a straight rear arm, please let me know . Push Elbow doesn't count

Hi nevermind,

Please go see Chapter 9. Keep 2-R in mind as you study the pics.