"Wow, Teddy, none of this is in Homer's book "The Golfing Machine," His 80 hours of audio, couple hours of video or notes."
You apparently missed his statement about the volumes of books that could be written to compliment TGM, not re-define it.
"Does this mean we can use other data in debate around this place?"
I'll listen to anything that you post, if it can be substantiated by geometric or physical data. Not just because Brian told me so.
"I will say this—this post is harder to read than the book."
I find people in this forum to be very intelligent with the ability to read.
"The center of the spine is also not in the rear of the torso, nor the head."
It’s behind the center of the head, as stated.
"You can hit a golf ball at a world-class level with many different points used as the 'center of rotation.'"
The point should be close to the top, not the pelvis. You can teach the Y factor if you'd like.
"You don't hit the ball on the backswing."
But, you prepare to do so. I guess we can start teaching people to start from top or end, as a top instructor suggested a few years ago.
"The bottom of the spine, the tailbone, moves all over dodge in a Stationary Head swing, as well as a bunch in other 'center of rotation' locations."
Seemingly not, when using the Y factor.
"The center of gravity in the body (swing) is located well below the head in the lower torso area."
Here, we are talking about the physics of rotation, not CG. So here's a little more information that’s too hard to read:
If you understand CG and understand the way to calculate it, you would understand that CG doesn't always have to be inside the body.
For objects with symmetry, the center of gravity is always located along the axis of symmetry. Do you teach many symmetrical people?
(Def. of symmetrical: EXACT correspondence of form and constituent configuration on opposite sides of a dividing line or plane or about a center or an axis)
"The point here Teddy, is that there is libraries full of data in biomechanics and other disciplines that would really muddy the water in the search for the PERFECT 'swing.' Homer had bunch figured out, but obviously not everything."
The point here Brian, is that there ARE (not is) libraries. And secondly, it would be a great service to us and everyone else in the world if you would write a book about all the things that Homer got wrong (with supporting empirical data).
"I teach a lot of people to have a perfectly steady head, because for them it works better."
It may sadden you that we agree on something.
"But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong."
As far as "you are wrong", pointing fingers is childish and non-substantive. "Totally still head" is your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the posts that you've read. Read them again. Lynn and I teach anything and everything that's in TGM. Some components are "recommended", some are said to be "extremely hazardous". I have the ability to teach the more complicated of the two, if you'd like. But, SELDOM does anyone ask for that.
I eagerly await all of the mysteries that you will reveal on the list of things that Homer got wrong. Lynn Blake will always be one to teach all of the things that Homer got right. Additionally, TGM is the unwavering foundation of OUR teaching, not just a tool.
__________________
Yoda knows...and he taught me!
For those less fortunate, Swinging is an option.
Last edited by YodasLuke : 01-02-2006 at 09:17 AM.
1-K: "There is no factor -- including Clubhead Throwaway -- that cannot, by proper assembly, adjustment, alignment, etc., be worked into a fairly effective Stroke Pattern for some application or other."
1-H: "There is little excuse for focing the average weekend golfer -- who has some strong tendency or other -- to adopt any procedure or Stroke Pattern that calls for the elimination of that tendency. It is far easier to develop a Stroke Pattern that properly compensates for it. Change the factors that are easily controlled to fit those that are difficult to change.
1-E: "The student must not expect to play a game with more precision than is built into it. But every student should achieve a commensurate degree of consistency and play with a satisfying assurance of competence to perform within these built-in limitations and that, at any time, the limitations can be reduced by merely increasing the precision of all or any part of the present game."
10-0: "The aim of every player should be an Uncompensated Stroke - no faulty elements needing to be counteracted or offset."
10-0: "The aim of every player should be an Uncompensated Stroke - no faulty elements needing to be counteracted or offset."
3-A Translation of Instruction . . .This book presents the “uncompensated” Stroke as a goal, guide and progress report, not as the minimum entrance test.
Kids - Some Never Change - They Just Grow BIGGER...
Originally Posted by YodasLuke
"But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong."
(you are wrong) Pointing fingers is childish and non-substantive. "Totally still head" is your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the posts that you've read. Read them again. Lynn and I teach anything and everything that's in TGM. Some components are "recommended", some are said to be "extremely hazardous". I have the ability to teach the more complicated of the two, if you'd like. But, SELDOM does anyone ask for that.
I eagerly await all of the mysteries that you will reveal on the list of things that Homer got wrong. Lynn Blake will always be one to teach all of the things that Homer got right. Additionally, TGM is the unwavering foundation of OUR teaching, not just a tool.
Ted (not Teddy),
This is such an enlightening post. It brings to mind the kindergarten class I used to teach during Sunday schools in church.
There was a kid who would, unprovoked, go challenge other kids with:
Kid: "My daddy is better and stronger than your daddy."
Other kids: "Really? Show em' to us."
Kid: "Oh yes, (pointing finger), my daddy is better than all yer daddies."
Other kids: "Really? Show em'"
Kid: "He is the BEST."
Other kids: "(whispering...), let's just humor him, else he won't quit yapping. Ok, your daddy is the BEST."
Kid: ~(smug grin)~
I guess some kids never change, they just grow BIGGER...
These are my (Brian Manzella) answers to the above questions.
This debate needs some closure and the best way for that—in my opinion—is a review.
What better way to start a review than to state your case—one more time—to the readers.
Where should the HEAD be at address?
In general, I position the golfer to be tilted from the hips enough to get the belt line close to pointing at the ball. I then create what I call “golf arms”: slightly inward rotation with the right forearm on plane. I guess I am setting the wedges, but to be honest, I prefer Standard Address for most players, so the left arm wedge is really not ‘set.’ From there the right hand being lower on the club takes care of any slight axis tilt.
I then place the ball in whatever ball position I am using for that golfer, and wherever that ‘puts’ the head, that’s where I leave it.
I never, ever put the head some place, just to have it there.
Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
No.
Do you make any exceptions?
For someone needing help to get to the inside-aft quadrant for whatever reason, I position the tailbone a bit closer to the target and then the head slightly to the right to maintain the same ‘balance.’
For the golfer needing to swinging to far to the right, I position them slightly the other way.
These are not absolutes though. I’ll create an address that helps the player with the pattern, like pre-turned hips, etc.
What should the HEAD do during the swing?
It should move as little as possible. But I really don’t want the base of the neck to move at all.
Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
Nope.
Do you make any exceptions?
All the time.
First, slicers have—in general—horrible pivots. Their head moves forward and tilts left, the hips slide way right, the shoulders turn way to steep. Once I fix the clubface, they now have a new need, to hit the inside-aft quadrant. To get them to do this, I fix the address position and then observe their ‘new’ pivots. It will often still need lots of work. This work requires—almost always—a more Standard Hip Turn, and a Flatter Shoulder Turn. If they STILL can’t make a backswing pivot that allows for them to come right down plane, I get them to turn around their spine, which 99% of the time, requires some head movement to the right on the backswing—but next to ZERO base of the neck movement. A classic shoulder turn takeaway, you might want to call it.
Hookers almost always need the opposite, they really to turn less and less flat. They have developed those problems trying to swing more out to right field, to “play” their hook. These golfers need the clubface/leakage issues addressed, but often I will fix the plane line first. This process is always sped up by creating less axis tilt, more forward ball position and the resultant more centered head.
These golfers need a steeper shoulder turn, less hip turn, etc. and they are almost always helped by a right forearm pickup, delayed hip turn, and less axis tilt on the downstroke.
Again, these are not absolutes at all, just generalities. I ALWAYS let the imperatives dictate the components and all the parts of the pattern.
Last edited by brianmanzella : 01-02-2006 at 01:45 AM.
I've followed this discussion since the beginning. I would give the following analogy. HK said any plane shifts were extremely hazardous and I feel this reasoning could be applied to the tripod, whether it be the head or the top of the spine.
To my mind, this is one of Homer's great contributions. He identified the lateral Hip Shift as the source of the Weight Shift. Again, this is not the lateral Head and upper spine shift recommended by so many, but a Hip Shift. The Head maintains its Stationary position in space -- it can rotate responsively to the Turning Body in both directions and is not required to remain 'perfectly still' as some misinterpret -- as does the upper spine between the shoulders. Hence we have the complete independence of the Hip Motion from the Head and Shoulders and with it, the ability to Shift the Weight in both directions while maintaining a fixed Pivot Swing Center. In TGM parlance, we have 'Hula Hula flexibility.'
How much of the weight shift is just the Arms and Club moving from the center of the body to either side of it?
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