Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.
I concur with Mikes response above .
Impact hand location is another concept , related perhaps but different. Nothing wrong with monitoring that procedurally although it could be argued that those who think that is one and the same as the aiming point procedure are missing out on what Homers aiming point procedure really was.
The Aiming Point can be adjusted fore and aft of the ball along the Delivery Line of the Clubhead (not the plane line for balls back of low point) . If for example a player tends to leave his long levered driver shots to the right , moving the Aiming Point aft (back towards the right foot) of the ball a few inches will trick him or her into releasing earlier or perhaps more forcefully . This aids in the squaring of the face by impact. Ones Aiming Point can therefore change on a day by day basis.
Thats my take on it anyways. The other benefit is that it adds down and out to the stroke , to ones intentions. A throwing like motion at the aiming point precludes the common malady of swinging forward towards the target, Steering.
Joe,
You'd need to provide a different example or fully explain how you are using the same principle I'm talking about - moving the hands somewhere. I don't see the apples to apples relationship for someone pulling a gun out of a holster and pointing it at a target without lining it up with their eyes.
Thanks
It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line. But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top, because the hand path starts curving, unlike the ideal conceptual hand paths in Ch 9, in spite of a straight line effort. Once the right shoulder initially drives PP#3 toward the Aiming Point, forget about it, but continue to trace the Plane Line with PP#3. The trouble happens when the player continues to try to make the hands go toward the Aiming Point by manipulation, all the way to Impact, causing the hands to be moving down and out at Impact, instead of moving up and in as they should.
Impact hand location is another concept , related perhaps but different. Nothing wrong with monitoring that procedurally although it could be argued that those who think that is one and the same as the aiming point procedure are missing out on what Homers aiming point procedure really was.
The Aiming Point can be adjusted fore and aft of the ball along the Delivery Line of the Clubhead (not the plane line for balls back of low point) . If for example a player tends to leave his long levered driver shots to the right , moving the Aiming Point aft (back towards the right foot) of the ball a few inches will trick him or her into releasing earlier or perhaps more forcefully . This aids in the squaring of the face by impact. Ones Aiming Point can therefore change on a day by day basis.
Thats my take on it anyways. The other benefit is that it adds down and out to the stroke , to ones intentions. A throwing like motion at the aiming point precludes the common malady of swinging forward towards the target, Steering.
Ok, I feel like an idiot, again!
It wasn't until trying the Aiming Point concept the other evening that I realized I had never really dragged PP # 3 anywhere on purpose, ever, not to the mall, not to McD's, not to Minnesota or Wisconsin!
Playing with the metal broomstick one of my students was nice enough to break for me and I felt it!!! No, not Agina, but PP # 3! We had an old cardboard box filled with trash I had marked the outside of with the stick before. Ehmm, suddenly, I cut it in half with a controlled Ax-handle drive thinking only of planting the left heel with a pre-turned hip and pulling the EA loaded PP # 3 to the box!
I came home and alternately made my impact bag jump up and straight back with my Angle Hinge and spin left with my Horizontal Hinge!
The problem? I flexed the clubs on every shot!!!! And I did it on purpose!!!!
DRAG THE MOP, DRAG THE DOG, DRAG PP # 3 TO THE AIMING POINT!
Thanks guys! The challenge will be to play with the soft shafts I Have tomorrow! My ball is about to "act a whole lot different!"
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 05-11-2012 at 05:00 PM.
It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line. But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top, because the hand path starts curving, unlike the ideal conceptual hand paths in Ch 9, in spite of a straight line effort. Once the right shoulder initially drives PP#3 toward the Aiming Point, forget about it, but continue to trace the Plane Line with PP#3. The trouble happens when the player continues to try to make the hands go toward the Aiming Point by manipulation, all the way to Impact, causing the hands to be moving down and out at Impact, instead of moving up and in as they should.
Joe,
I'll try this one more time and see if we can communicate - however I don't think it's going to work between you and I.
[b][i]It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line.
I see the similarity here - however my intitial post was covering the context of what might happen if you use the aiming point concept and have the perception of continually driving the hands towards the aiming point and how that would move the hands above the plane. Alternatively, in order to create an on-plane motion and using the aiming point concept you'd need to pick something well inside the plane line. So it's much more than just an aiming issue. Your gunshot example has the aiming issue but doesn't really address the brain/movement issues that was essential to my post.
But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top
Thrust effort and where PP#3 would move are two separate things - to clarify - even from the top PP#3 doesn't move towards the aiming point - due to shoulders uncoil etc.
But, unlike the bullet, PP#3 does not continue toward the Aiming Point after the initial move(trigger pull) from the Top, because the hand path starts curving, unlike the ideal conceptual hand paths in Ch 9, in spite of a straight line effort. Right - curving from a face on viewpoint. However, I still have an issue with comparing the moving bullet from the effort of the hands to continue towards an object and not actually be moving towards that object (aiming point) becuase of the brain's perspective.
Once the right shoulder initially drives PP#3 toward the Aiming Point, forget about it, but continue to trace the Plane Line with PP#3.
Again, the PP#3 isn't moving towards the aiming point from the top. The player's effort may be to move it towards the aiming point but the hands move back and away not directly on a straight line to the aiming point. (for most professional full swings).
When you say forget about it after the initial drive - well then we are no longer talking about the Golfing Machine concept of aiming point - and that is the discussion here.
The trouble happens when the player continues to try to make the hands go toward the Aiming Point by manipulation, all the way to Impact, causing the hands to be moving down and out at Impact, instead of moving up and in as they should
Your not addressing my point here - my post isn't about where the hands hit their lowpoint - it was about how using the aiming point concept could cause the hands to move above the original plane on the downswing.
I was under the impression that you dis-agreed with my idea that if have the perception (intent) of thrusting to the aiming point throughout the downswing - i.e. the Golfing Machine aiming point concept - that your hands would move above plane. However, from your posts so far I haven't been able to understand why you dis-agree with that.
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Thanks Mike O and OB. I think I have a much better grasp on the Aiming Point Concept.
One more part. 7-23 Third paragraph, Reads, "The straight line path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path....The former" (straight line path ) " can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane COMPENSATED" (my emphasis) "with a reaching-out ".. and a grip shift. Is this a recognition by HK of the "problems" that Mike O started the thread on?
I have an Angled Line question BUT I will start a new thread below...
It is an exact analogy - when they draw and fire, they've aimed the gun at the target below the eye line. In the golf stroke, the Aiming Point is the target for the initial direction of thrust of PP#3(analogous to the bullet), also below the eye line.
Just for clarification - let me describe the exact analogy to the problem I was describing in my initial post where the hands don't go where you want them to go - give the brain's perspective i.e. above plane viewpoint.
To clarify - the essential element is how to control where your hands move.
If you have a gun target say 8 feet away (roughly the same distance from your eyes to the ball in the golf swing) at eye height. Let's assume you pull your gun from the holster at your side and the ideal technique is to bring your gun on a plane that goes directly from your holster to the target (that's the on-plane golf motion). So you start to thrust towards that gun target while at all times keeping you eye on the target (the ball in golf), finally the gun is in line with your view of the target. This may give you the sense/feeling that you took it on the correct line however if we draw a line from your holster to where your gun is at the end of your 3 foot arm - the actual angle it took was not from the holster to the target 8 feet away. If we wanted to use that procedure and have the hand with the gun move on a line from the holster to the gun target 8 feet away, you would need to pick a alternative target below the gun target that would coincide with the distance of three feet out - that would put you on that proper line. So is the aiming point concept still usable Whip? Sure - but it takes a simple geometry calculation to verify it's location in order to achieve the actual ideal movement.
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Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
Thanks Mike O and OB. I think I have a much better grasp on the Aiming Point Concept.
One more part. 7-23 Third paragraph, Reads, "The straight line path is a simpler procedure than the Angled Line Path....The former" (straight line path ) " can have a steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane COMPENSATED" (my emphasis) "with a reaching-out ".. and a grip shift. Is this a recognition by HK of the "problems" that Mike O started the thread on?
HB
No, He's just saying that the low hands address location and making plane angle shifts - rising above that low plane on the backswing and then dropping back down to it on the downswing - creating the angled line path - is more complicated.
For the straight line path - which requires a single plane downswing -you can't start with a true elbow plane - too flat - so you need to have the shaft raised up when you take your grip- to coincide with the proper downswing (let's say backswing also to keep this simple). Since you are according to the Golfing Machine always taking your grip with a level left wrist - that tends to put the club more in the palm of the hand.
Probably a poor word choice in regards to "Compensated" - as it's not a item offsetting another negative item - but just the required change if you are moving from a shifting pattern to a non-shifting pattern.
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Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
Just for clarification - let me describe the exact analogy to the problem I was describing in my initial post where the hands don't go where you want them to go - give the brain's perspective i.e. above plane viewpoint.
To clarify - the essential element is how to control where your hands move.
If you have a gun target say 8 feet away (roughly the same distance from your eyes to the ball in the golf swing) at eye height. Let's assume you pull your gun from the holster at your side and the ideal technique is to bring your gun on a plane that goes directly from your holster to the target (that's the on-plane golf motion). So you start to thrust towards that gun target while at all times keeping you eye on the target (the ball in golf), finally the gun is in line with your view of the target. This may give you the sense/feeling that you took it on the correct line however if we draw a line from your holster to where your gun is at the end of your 3 foot arm - the actual angle it took was not from the holster to the target 8 feet away. If we wanted to use that procedure and have the hand with the gun move on a line from the holster to the gun target 8 feet away, you would need to pick a alternative target below the gun target that would coincide with the distance of three feet out - that would put you on that proper line. So is the aiming point concept still usable Whip? Sure - but it takes a simple geometry calculation to verify it's location in order to achieve the actual ideal movement.
This over-complication indicates a faulty interpretation of the Aiming Point and how it's used.
Firstly, the Aiming Point is either the ball or a small distance before or aft of it ON THE PLANE LINE. This is because of the statement on pg 83: "-2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...", which is in the context of compensation for different length clubs. When the ball is moved forward or back, it always remains on the Plane Line. This means that the Aiming Point was never meant as a means to direct the hands to any point off the Plane Line. It is a direct substitute for the ball.
Secondly, the pressure felt at PP#3 is the direct substitute for the lagging sweetspot, which is used to hit the direct substitute for the ball, the Aiming Point. HK is very clear on how to use Aiming Point on p83: "At the top of the Backstroke--even at the End(10-21-C)--mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the pressure precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward..." You do not manipulate the hand path to visually continue toward the Aiming Point down that mentally constructed straight line, but direct it with the pivot or right triceps from the top, in the direction indicated by that straight line, as if the pressure in PP#3 were free to move directly down that line, and then let the hands go wherever the thrust force takes them, mindful of tracing the Plane Line with PP#3. The later the release of #2, the straighter the hand path will be.
This over-complication indicates a faulty interpretation of the Aiming Point and how it's used.
Firstly, the Aiming Point is either the ball or a small distance before or aft of it ON THE PLANE LINE. This is because of the statement on pg 83: "-2. move the Ball forward or aft of the established Aiming Point...", which is in the context of compensation for different length clubs. When the ball is moved forward or back, it always remains on the Plane Line. This means that the Aiming Point was never meant as a means to direct the hands to any point off the Plane Line. It is a direct substitute for the ball.
Thank you Joe - Well aware of what the aiming point concept is in the book- purpose of my post and thread was to present a new idea/revision to the original.
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Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
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Thank you Joe - Well aware of what the aiming point concept is in the book- purpose of my post and thread was to present a new idea/revision to the original.
Because of the title of the thread,
The aiming point concept can create off plane motion, lss pwer, cbface algnmnt
I was trying to point out how the creation of off plane motion could be avoided by correct interpretation/execution of the original Aiming Point concept, which lots of TGMers have used, and continue to use, effectively.
There is at least one former GSED, who has claimed that the Aiming Point concept is invalid, because it causes faulty hand paths and therefore, off plane clubhead motion.
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