9-1-5...Pics

[brianmanzella]

I'm simply stating that the data given in the comparison are wrong. There are other factors here that lead to illusion. There is a hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord enters called the foramen magnum. The skull is oblong (not a perfect circle) and this hole is located BEHIND an ear to ear diameter. Additionally, the bones furthest forward in the skull are the front teeth. The nose is cartilage that protrudes even farther from the center of the head. Therefore, rotation around the spine, a single axis would cause the nose, as a point of reference, to move dramatically. The Stationary Post (a players head) may turn (Pivot) but does not "sway" or "bob". And, this relationship does not look like a lollipop on a stick. The spine is not centered in the base of the skull. Rotation creates 'movement' if looking at the face. This is the lesser of the details.
The second is the ability for the head of the humerus (the top of the upper arm bone) to protract (to extend forward or the feeling of making your shoulders touch in front of your sternum). The shoulder is also on a concentric circle with the head or spine as the axis, which would be measureably further than the nose or face from the center of rotation. A common myth in golf instruction is that the shoulders turn as if they are a steel bar accross the spine. It is NOT the case. Simply measuring an angle created by the movement (turning) of the left shoulder includes no portion for range of motion (protraction) created through extensor action. Seemingly, this angle would be created by turning the shoulders as much as possible with some 'head' movement ("sway"). WRONG! You lose double Jeapordy! Without the above mentioned considerations the article referenced earlier would seem to have merit. When my left shoulder is under my chin, my right shoulder is still very visible from a front view. This means a different degree of "turn" is happening in each shoulder.
Yoda's been very busy with people coming in from out of town, and without his help, I would have never seen these things. When he has time, he will post the DEFINITIVE post on 9-1-5. I'm anxious to see it.

Wow, Teddy, none of this is in Homer's book "The Golfing Machine," His 80 hours of audio, couple hours of video or notes.

Does this mean we can use other data in debate around this place?

I will say this—this post is harder to read than the book.

Anyway, here is a little common sense and some (easy to read) hard facts:

• The Spine is NOT in the middle of the torso, nor the middle of the head.

• The center of the spine is also not in the rear of the torso, nor the head.

• You can hit a golf ball at a world-class level with many different points used as the 'center of rotation.'

• You don't hit the ball on the backswing.

• When you change the center of rotation on the backstroke, you change the path the hands take on the backstroke some, but change their path dramatically on the downswing.

• When you change the center of rotation on the backstroke, you change the path the CLUBHEAD takes on the backstroke some, but change the CLUBHEAD path dramatically on the downswing.

• The bottom of the spine, the tailbone, moves all over dodge in a Stationary Head swing, as well as a bunch in other 'center of rotation' locations. On the downswing it has to move some to tilt the axis, and that movement has more than just a toward the target dimension for some plane lines.

• The center of gravity in the body (swing) is located well below the head in the lower torso area.

• Just as MORAD states, the head movement is obviously something that influences the pattern a great deal.

The point here Teddy, is that there is libraries full of data in biomechanics and other disciplines that would really muddy the water in the search for the PERFECT 'swing.' Homer had bunch figured out, but obviously not everything.

I teach a lot of people to have a perfectly steady head, because for them it works better.

But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong.

[golfbulldog]

The desired head position is shown in the photos in 9-1 -- the "Body Zone". These photos are shown for the stated purpose of depicting the movement of the body that will result in "balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso." In each of the photos, 9-1-1 through 9-1-12, there is a white card on the background curtain that serves as a reference for the motionless head throughout the swing.

See 2-R for a note on how to interpret photos in the book.

Thanks for your reply.

I was hoping that you would reference the photos in 9-1. They too show head movement( more than just head swivel) and your reference to 2-R is the key. Homer states that the photos were posed as expertly as he was able to achieve "as near to 'zero tolerance' as humanly possible". This is the key. Surely his intention is to try to achieve stable head but is aware that this cannot always be achieved ( even when the model is posed by Homer himself - let alone during a full swing).

NOW compare the conditions under which these photos are created with those that have lead to 10 pages of discussion!! Non tripod, non sequencial action photos!! One cannot draw ABSOLUTE conclusions from material of this quality. It may be all we have to work with but that does NOT mean we should therefore work with it - not if the level of conclusion you desire is proof for or against such "absolute" laws.

The real answer is get better data! THEN draw conclusions.

[Trig]

I remember the demonstration of a peice of string with weight tied to one end. You can move your hand in very tiny cirlces and spin the weight around and around in a circle. You can generate a ton of speed with very little movement of the hand.

BUT! The minute you start moving the hand laterally (ie, swaying) it kills the natural spinning motion of the weight and it slows down dramatically.

So while I wouldn't argue you can't hit a golf ball while swaying, it seems like you are robbing yourself of clubhead speed not to mention the inconsistency of trying to always sway back into the correct position to hit the ball. Swaying requires compensations.

So I guess the real question from the instructor's point of view is, if you have a talented athlete who hits the ball great with a swaying motion should you try to change it? And would you ever teach a swaying motion to someone who wasn't swaying?

Stated another way - should the instructor try to teach the student to have the fewest compensations possible? It seems this is the essence of TGM. Mr. Kelley never said you CAN'T have compenstations, but he did say you should strive to eliminate them to have the most effective stroke.

I have had a lot of instructors over the years that gave me band-aids and never attempted to teach me the correct alignmnets and a stroke with miminal compensations. I wasted my time and money on every one of them.

[Yoda]

Anyone who builds things will tell you it's all about staying within tolerance and I believe that is what is going on with the head.

Exactly, Bob. Thanks.

[Yoda]

The head is not "motionless" in the strictest sense, because it does rotate around its vertical axis, similar to what the torso is doing. One only has to notice where the nose is pointing to see that the head rotates.

Correct. The photos in 9-1 and 9-2 clearly illustrate that Head Rotation about an axis -- Johnny Miller called it a little 'chin swing' -- does not violate the concept of Stationary Head maintaining its position in space.

[Yoda]

It seems to me that HK uses "motionless head" in reference to the snares of Bobbing and Swaying and, in that regard, the model's head approaches the ideal of "motionless" with a much tighter and acceptable tolerance.

Correct. That is the point that started this whole thread. If the Head and Upper Spine move to the right, you have Swayed. If they move up and down, you have Bobbed.

Yet the concept of a visible and unmistakeable lateral move of the upper torso is being taught in many quarters. It is geometrically incorrect and deserves the warning label Homer Kelley so justifiably applied.

[Yoda]

One thing that is often overlooked is that "weight shift" to many instructors includes what the upper body is doing (the position golf bromide of "get your chest over the right knee"). To Mr. Kelley, "weight shift" is exclusively limited to Hip motion.

To my mind, this is one of Homer's great contributions. He identified the lateral Hip Shift as the source of the Weight Shift. Again, this is not the lateral Head and upper spine shift recommended by so many, but a Hip Shift. The Head maintains its Stationary position in space -- it can rotate responsively to the Turning Body in both directions and is not required to remain 'perfectly still' as some misinterpret -- as does the upper spine between the shoulders. Hence we have the complete independence of the Hip Motion from the Head and Shoulders and with it, the ability to Shift the Weight in both directions while maintaining a fixed Pivot Swing Center. In TGM parlance, we have 'Hula Hula flexibility.'

[tongzilla]

But, you and Lynn are saying you ONLY teach it one way—totally still head—which means our friend Leo Tong(zilla) went totally with LBG's teachings, he would have to HOPE and PRAY that he would be able to hit it as good with a "pivot tripod center," as he does with a different—more "spine centered" center of backstroke rotation. Because, right now, and at Canton, his RESULTS say that you are wrong.

Pleeeeease Brian.

http://www.par543.com/videos/9dec05.avi

1-K: "There is no factor -- including Clubhead Throwaway -- that cannot, by proper assembly, adjustment, alignment, etc., be worked into a fairly effective Stroke Pattern for some application or other."

1-H: "There is little excuse for focing the average weekend golfer -- who has some strong tendency or other -- to adopt any procedure or Stroke Pattern that calls for the elimination of that tendency. It is far easier to develop a Stroke Pattern that properly compensates for it. Change the factors that are easily controlled to fit those that are difficult to change.

1-E: "The student must not expect to play a game with more precision than is built into it. But every student should achieve a commensurate degree of consistency and play with a satisfying assurance of competence to perform within these built-in limitations and that, at any time, the limitations can be reduced by merely increasing the precision of all or any part of the present game."

[brianmanzella]

Ok, Leo.

I think I made my point.

When you have been reduced to "some guy in Louisiana" who isn't teaching TGM, you have to stand up or run.


Lynn,

Couldn't agree more on the Homer concept of weight shift. One of his top 5 "greatest hits."

[Yoda]

Please compare the photos 8-3 through to 8-10.

I presume these are posed photos in a controlled environment to "model" correct movements. There is a small amount of head tilt to players right on the backswing ( using stationary ball as the fixed point) BUT by "Release" (8-9) there is the "appearance" of some forward head movement BUT by "impact"(8-10) the head has moved back to original position.

Is this "appearance" real ?

Is this the desired head movement?

Is this an oversight in these photos?

One of the basic tenets of 'how to study' TGM lies in how to interpret the photos accompanying a given discussion. On this point, Homer Kelley was adamant (2-R):

"The picture presents the subject only as noted in the written discussion and is not intended as a reference regarding any of the other aspects or subjects which the picture may include incidentally."

In other words, don't be looking at her Foot position if the discussion is about the Hips. Or the Knees if it is about Delivery Path. I have said many times, "If the subject is Right Anchor Knee Action, and she is hanging from the ceiling with her Right Knee bent, then the photo accurately depicts the point under discussion."

This is the point missed in the quoted reference to the photo sequence in Chapter Eight. The photos depict only the twelve sections of the stroke and their boundaries. That is the constraint of any analysis, and any other Component relationships depicted -- Feet, Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Head, whatever -- are incidental and therefore not to be relied upon for their accuracy.