Vijay's 'Wrong' Move -- the Infamous Flat Right Wrist

[annikan skywalker]

Unfortunatley these pics are from digital video footage...the ball is starting left......So I agree with you about the accuracy of 3D and Parallax....it won't work here...I've got the footage of this swing and several others....He is NOT hitting Draws here....Trust Me!

Great Points about Pictures...Perspective is always different in 3Dimensional Space...You and I standing side by side looking at the same thing always see it a little differently ..RIGHT..You never know what the players intentions are!!! We don't know what he's trying to do....Maybe he's trying to do what he's actually doing...

[annikan skywalker]

You're right...so you're basically saying...I really DO have no idea...Oh Well!!!

[Yoda]

This is a question for Yoda: Can you use angled or any hinging for that matter on the backswing? I thought hinging action was determined from impact to follow through.

The Left Wrist Action (Component #18 ) is Clubhead Control and is in operation from Start Up to Impact. It has two Planes of Motion: Rotational (Turning and Rolling) and Perpendicular (Cocking and Uncocking). The Standard Action (10-18-A) is a Swivel Action -- Hand Motion independent of Arm Motion. A Left Wrist that is Turned and Cocked on the Backstroke must subsequently be Uncocked and Rolled on the Downstroke.

Hinge Action (Component #10) is Clubface Control and is in operation from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (the Both Arms Straight position). Hinge Action has only one Plane of Motion: the Vertical 'center position' of Rotational Motion. This Vertical Condition of the Rotational Motion is executed by the Flat Left Wrist remaining Vertical (perpendicular) to one of the three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical).

At any time, the player may substitute Hinge Action for Left Wrist Action during the entire Stroke (7-10). Here, instead of true Hand Rotation -- independent Turning and Rolling -- the Left Wrist remains Vertical to one of the three Planes. Though the Left Wrist may appear to Turn on the Backstroke and Roll on the Downstroke (especially with Horizontal and Vertical Hinging), it is simply remaining vertical to the selected Plane of the Clubface Motion through Impact. Hence, there is no true Rotation of the Wrist. Nevertheless, from Top to Finish, the Stroke may take on the Feel of one long, slow 'Swivel' (2-G).

However...

When utilizing the Hinge Action alternative during the entire Stroke, the player should be aware that at some point, the Shoulder and Arm Motions gradually bring the selected Hinge Action Variation into an On Plane condition at the Top. This 'palms parallel to the Plane' alignment is identical to the Standard Wrist Action with its independent Turn and Roll.

Thus, other than the true Single Wrist Action of 10-18-C-#3 (wherein the Left Wrist does remain truly Vertical throughout the Stroke), the Wrist in the Backstroke gradually Turns (but is not Turned!) and in the Downstroke gradually Rolls (but is not Rolled!). Any forced attempt to maintain the Left Wrist Vertical is unnatural and will produce both an Off Plane Clubshaft and a most un-Golf-like Stroke, conditions intolerable to the the thinking player.

[birdie_man]

Great post Yoda.

This should clear up a lot of things for a lot of people....when I was starting out I always found the takeaway to be the hardest thing to understand and get right....

....I also thought it was the part of the swing that was explained the WORST by most golf instruction.

Gotta love dems ALIGNMENTS....and the language of TGM...

...makes things so complicated eh?

[phillygolf]

maybe VJ was working on hitting some sweeping draws in this swing......

You're kidding right???? Vijay sets up 25 degrees at east for a fade....let alone a draw...

-Patrick

[phillygolf]

The Left Wrist Action (Component #18 ) is Clubhead Control and is in operation from Start Up to Impact. It has two Planes of Motion: Rotational (Turning and Rolling) and Perpendicular (Cocking and Uncocking). The Standard Action (10-18-A) is a Swivel Action -- Hand Motion independent of Arm Motion. A Left Wrist that is Turned and Cocked on the Backstroke must subsequently be Uncocked and Rolled on the Downstroke.

Hinge Action (Component #10) is Clubface Control and is in operation from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (the Both Arms Straight position). Hinge Action has only one Plane of Motion: the Vertical 'center position' of Rotational Motion. This Vertical Condition of the Rotational Motion is executed by the Flat Left Wrist remaining Vertical (perpendicular) to one of the three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical).

At any time, the player may substitute Hinge Action for Left Wrist Action during the entire Stroke (7-10). Here, instead of true Hand Rotation -- independent Turning and Rolling -- the Left Wrist remains Vertical to one of the three Planes. Though the Left Wrist may appear to Turn on the Backstroke and Roll on the Downstroke (especially with Horizontal and Vertical Hinging), it is simply remaining vertical to the selected Plane of the Clubface Motion through Impact. Hence, there is no true Rotation of the Wrist. Nevertheless, from Top to Finish, the Stroke may take on the Feel of one long, slow 'Swivel' (2-G).

However...

When utilizing the Hinge Action alternative during the entire Stroke, the player should be aware that at some point, the Shoulder and Arm Motions gradually bring the selected Hinge Action Variation into an On Plane condition at the Top. This 'palms parallel to the Plane' alignment is identical to the Standard Wrist Action with its independent Turn and Roll.

Thus, other than the true Single Wrist Action of 10-18-C-#3 (wherein the Left Wrist does remain truly Vertical throughout the Stroke), the Wrist in the Backstroke gradually Turns (but is not Turned!) and in the Downstroke gradually Rolls (but is not Rolled!). Any forced attempt to maintain the Left Wrist Vertical is unnatural and will produce both an Off Plane Clubshaft and a most un-Golf-like Stroke, conditions intolerable to the the thinking player.

Lynn....

Do you think you could dissect Vijay's stroke for us?

Thanks,
Patrick

[djd]

I think some of the Component differences from 12:2 are:

Grip Type - Strong Underhand
Plane Angle Variation - Double Shift for Draws..Single Shift for Cuts
Hinge Action - Tends to use Angled Hinging
Shoulder Turn - Rotated
Hip Action- Delayed
Hip Turn - Backstroke Shiftless, Downstroke - Slide
Knee Action - Standard
Foot Action - Flat

There are others ...but this comes to the front of my mind


Interesting is : Pivot Components
Flat Left + Standard Knee + Shiftless + Delayed + Rotated = Mega Hip Slant with a lot of Vertical motions combined with Horizontal motions give you some serious forces not just going around the axis ...BUT up and down plus in and out of the GROUND

annikan- in the strong underhand grip both wrists are turned, in the hands only position mac assumes above is his left wrist also bent and cocked at address? thanks.

[phillygolf]

he's on the freaking driving range.....do you honestly think the 2nd best player in the world routinely tries to hit fades while dropping well below plane by manipulating hinge action?.....if that's the case, then my respect for VJ's game has just increased.....

Well...not sure.

But let me ask this. Do you think he's trying to top it????? My point is this...I dont know what the hell he is doing...but he sure as hell isnt hitting sweeping hooks, guarantee that...especially from a cemera angle a little off to the side....who knows????

Not me.

Hooks, I guarantee he is not practicing.

[phillygolf]

so where do we stand?. VJ is below plane and on the driving range....no one knows for sure what type of shot he's hitting (we do know he's not trying to top it or hit sweeping hooks according to phillygolf)

Thats a bit sarcastic. Do you disagree? You really think Vijay, who does everything to negate a hook, is on the range hitting sweeping hooks????

And its Patrick. Clark.

Any other ideas as to what he may be doing????

VJ also has an issue where both his left and right wrist are flat at impact - kinda odd - but #3 is in the right place regardless

And Brian had the best explanation I ever hear on Vijays right hand....see my posts above...

Mac O'Grady has a nice swing and his MORAD stuff peaks out every now and then...remember...it's Mac's favorite 9 patterns...is that right?

9 Patterns? I am not a MAC guy, but I do have hours of tape of him going through Morad....never heard of 9 patterns (now...122, yes! ...just kidding)

well i guess we're back at square one...Homer Kelley wrote a manual that basically is a system that explains all golf methods.....VJ Singh is the 2nd best at it (applying the golf methods on the course under pressure) on the planet currently......and his swings sucks because he's below plane and hitting pulls on some random tour driving range....where do we go from here?

Hmmm....good question.

Is he hitting pulls or fades???

Gee....the world according to Philly....

[lagster]

Thats a bit sarcastic. Do you disagree? You really think Vijay, who does everything to negate a hook, is on the range hitting sweeping hooks????

And its Patrick. Clark.

Any other ideas as to what he may be doing????


And Brian had the best explanation I ever hear on Vijays right hand....see my posts above...


9 Patterns? I am not a MAC guy, but I do have hours of tape of him going through Morad....never heard of 9 patterns (now...122, yes! ...just kidding)

Hmmm....good question.

Is he hitting pulls or fades???

Gee....the world according to Philly....

.................................................. ..............

We all know that VJ strikes the ball well, plays well, scores well, and makes a lot of money. So did Miller Barber, Bruce Lietzke, and various others. We are just looking at and studying pictures of golf swings to learn more about G.O.L.F., and how these swings work. There are many VARIATIONS... we can learn from them. Keep the pictures coming!!!