#4 Accumulator physics...
 

THRUST 6-C-1 #4 "wherever the straight Left Arm contacts the left side. And. The picture with caption "#4 Edged Arrow.

Preface; I have been thinking about shoulder turn and the above has always been problematic to me.

The general thought seems to be the left arm is "moved" by the contact point with the chest. My belief is the left arm (#4 accumulator when not in line with the shoulders) is accelerated axially by a pure pull and radially by change in angular velocity of the turning shoulders. The 6-c-1 presentation is not helpful to my construction. Any contact between the arm and chest is purely incidental and not necessary for proper actuation of #4 accumulator.

Other thoughts??

HB

It's probably best to just think of #4 as pivot power. So however the pivot unloads it, whether a pure pull, a blast off, or a combo is correct.

I started this thread because this is a precision alignment and any arbetrary flap about or misapplication is bad.
These are some of the facts/considerations that
have gone into my thought:

1. The shoulder turn is around the spine.

2. The "HEAD", not the head, is the stationary center of the swing. That would place the "HEAD" at the intersection of shoulders and spine. Everyones physical head is located slightly different.

3. #4 Accumulator is an angle. If it releases off the chest it has a release angle of about 1 degree. Other wise #4 release range is from Max. angle- about 45 deg to the shoulders - to min. angle - in line with shoulders- 180 deg.

5. A "chest launch" produces uncentered rotation. And is little more than a #1 pp "lite" slid up the arm.

6. I see many golfers who have a sternum center, most pro"s have it back at the spine, "HEAD"

7...X etc.

Discussion?

All is part of TGM but 6-C-1 #4, as presented, can be problematic for alignment??

HB

I'm not sure I understand your concern. As long as the shoulder turn hard enough the arms will lag and then will tend to return to roughtly perpendicular to the shoulder.

wrt 3, I see #4 angle as hands going from in front of right pectoral to in front pf the sternum when released.

wrt 5-6, the rotation is uncentered anyway as the center of the arc (shoulder) is located away from the center of the pivot.

Included info
 

Here is a well done thread. I find no need to re-do it.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...Max+%234+power

The author has his ME credentials from NIT mine are EE from NjIT but I do have a good ME background.

Please continue.

HB

For starters, #1 is not true even for a rotated shoulder turn. The spine is on the outside of the body and gets thrown around by the shoulder turn, however flat or steep.

2-H SHOULDER MOTION

p.2
"The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn...."

HB

Yes, it says that, now reach up over your shoulder and put your middle finger on your spine and turn while keeping your head still - feel the finger move and look in a mirror and see it move. Now do it again but this time put your finger on your neck bone. :scratch:

My #2 - "head" vs. head. read. 2-H,p.2 last line, note " ". Ref. 1-H, p.last. Also, "you do not move your head, it is moved" (I believe this came from Ben Doyle). He ,(BD) often says "turn on the lable in your shirt".

HB

Agreed on the head thing. Not sure what you mean by "pp #1 lite" why not just pp #4?

I don't want to get you stuck on this single point but doesn't the above "uncentered" rotation bring with it a critical acceleration multiplier? Let me explain my thinking and please tell me if my layman's logic is wrong mechanically.

I see it, the whole motion as a multiple levered system , with multiple centres therefore. Take the Downswing Sequence for instance , with its initial period of shoulder acceleration about the pivot centre (a place between the shoulders) followed by a period of (left) arm acceleration about the left shoulder . These two levers if you will are sequenced in initiation but overlap somewhat i.e. the left shoulder is still moving while the left arm is accelerating away from the chest via throw out or drive out. An uncentered motion yes but a powerful "blast off" as the left arm is now moving faster than mere pivot rotation would allow.

Also , in terms of mechanical advantage when the left arm (the upper portion of the primary lever ... the "primary lever" the thing we are really swinging or driving , our main concern in the hierarchy of levers) lies across the chest in Startdown (the period of shoulder acceleration) the radius in question is one that extends from the pivot centre. Not from the left shoulder! Making the radius effectively about a half a left arm shorter and therefore theoretically easier to turn with Pivot Power. #2 angle shortens the radius length as well of course but the portion of left arm extending from the pivot centre is shorter too!

Sort of like bicycle gears in a way. Perhaps . Maybe. Small radius to large as you pick up speed. Each with a corresponding amount of drag . We ramp up speed by metering lag and drag. Some see it as being similar to the figure skater spin deal where the hands and arms are closer to the centre of rotation.... the longer radius upon arm extension slowing the pivot rotation . Whatever, the system requires a proper timing of the sequence to work properly. No amount of brute force will overcome the disadvantage of starting in 10th gear as opposed to 1st.

As an aside , this relates to the reason why I don't personally subscribe to the "keeping the arms packed" theory for full power shots anyways. Hold off's , low shots, fades, angled hinging, hook prevention etc ...... sure I'll do that, feel the "pack".

Trying to think of a mechanical model. How bout this kids propeller toy. Imagine the blades as being the shoulders , not the arms. Now imagine another even longer straight piece representing the left arm attached to the left shoulder propeller blade by a piece of string. Upon rotation would not the far end of the left arm piece move the fastest of any component? Uncentered though it is . Incidentally having a string like connection between left arm and left shoulder is a must for power transfer. Muscle tension at that connection is a silent killer..... if you ever lose power under stressful tournament conditions , or in cold weather, check your string connection. Need a big drive ... make sure its string like.

Lets see- kinda jumping around a-bit:

I have NO CLUE what "keeping the arms packed" is. I dont get out enough I guess.

The middle paragraphs- I am a BIG fan of the kenematic Sequence so all you say is all good.

The #1 lite comment- the left arm should be a string and to swing #4 pulls one end of this string. When one hits they push on #1 at the hands. If one "launches" off the chest then the left arm must be stiff and the pressure is pushing, not on the hands but way up above the bicept. Like a #1 pp "lite". Think about it, any real power will tear out your rotator cuff. and fold the arm. Which must be supported by right arm force. Might as well call it hitting.
Just let the left shoulder pull, club will fly out.

Another point, while i am typing. {This is a new point on why it is taught to "spin the flywheel" with the right shoulder} although the left shoulder pulls, because the right is 180* out it can be thought of as driving. That is good because only the right shoulder can be "aimed" downplain. So, the left shoulder can be moved in the correct direction because of right shoulder precision movement

Tee time- USGA- gota go

HB

When Hitting, the push on #1 is with the right triceps. When Swinging it's the right shoulder which is pushing on #1, which pushes on the left arm, which pulls the left shoulder, which pulls the shaft, and when the left arm blasts off, it's still pulling the shaft, so you should call it what it is, Swinging.

The left shoulder never drives - it is always driven, by either the right shoulder or right triceps. The left shoulder, like the left arm, is passive, whether Hitting or Swinging. The right shoulder is the only one which can drive.

How does the pulling motion in the down stroke by a swinger work? Isn't this a left arm action?

Say it aint so Joe! U really do understand what I said but U are playing a game. Dextro?

hb

Last part of O.B. comment I didn't talk about above.

There are two (2) vectors we must look at:
1. that points straight out from the center-which will aligne with the shoulders under steady state rotation. (radial)
2. That trails the accelerating skoulder and is only present during acceleration, be it + or -.

The summation of these two vectors locates the "power package" arms hands and club, in general. BUT, we will restrict it to the left arm and #4 accumulator here because we need to keep within managle problem bounds.

The "vector sum" or resultant is of lower magnitude than the sum of the individual magnotudes if there is an included angle. and, the direct is within the included angle at an angle proportionate to the individual magnitudes. ie. You have to do the Trig.

Vectors can represent force, having both magnitude and direction. Nature likes to get/keep things in the lowest energy state. ie. the shortest vector resultant for the conditions at hand.

Good golf (TGM) requires good alignments created by good vectors, when you get moving, the direction and forces in these vectors are what is felt.

You know humans are real good at learning this. BALANCE. we run, walk, start fact, turn fast or slow all sorts of athletic things and all without falling on our face. Well, sometimes we do fall and sometimes we hook it off the face of the earth.

we practice this stuff 24/7 when we a child. how long does it take to swing a golf club? 1 second.

Is this a simple game?


HB

When Swinging , for pivot strokes there is no "left arm pulling action". That is to say the left arm is inert, string like and is pulled by the left shoulder only. For a swingers Pull Minor Basic , one accumulator, stroke , the Pivot is zeroed and the Left Arm itself does the pulling . You don't see this shot on tv very often but it is a logical shot given Homers catalogue of available options. Dave Stockton putts this way apparently despite the fact he sets up like he's about to Push Basic .

Think about this way ... to pull with the left arm in a pivot stroke is to pull the left arm away from the chest, an early release of #4. Hmmm not sure about short Full Sweep Release Pivot Strokes .... there might be a little left arm pulling there, gotta check that out on the range. Yoda'd know, he is a magician with that shot. Luke Donald isn't bad at it either.

This should be in the next edition. Nice. Ill need to come in after class for help with the stuff above that ... what is Trig?

Thanks,O.B. as always.

I got caught up by the pulling versus pushing.
I thought that was LA vs RA, but the pulling could perhaps be more in in both hands like tugging?

I have probably not been pulling at all - more like OTT right shoulder throwing away... I'm sorry to say.. so this is mostly just a theoretical question on my part.. but I'm eager to learn..

Sorry. trigonometry

hb

The way I described above. It's not a left arm action because the left arm is inert.

ok - I'll keep that in mind.

Joe no offence intended but how can pushing the left arm at the #1 pull the left shoulder around? Im trying to see that mechanically.

I do feel some #1pp when Swinging but Id say its the non accelerating thrust variety , a product of Extensor Action. It does load the #1pp during Startdown , the period of (Right) Shoulder Acceleration as the Left Shoulder takes out any slack in the left arm against the EA at the #1pp. Keeping me within the bounds of a three accumulator 4,2,3 swinging method.

Are you sure this isn't what you're really feeling , Joe?

Hah. If you bring out some calculus Ill have to drop this course. Got to protect my 55 average.

The Hands are just clamps, hitting or swinging. The pull of swinging is with the body for pivot strokes, fuller shots. When you get the Macdonald drills going , flowing the body throws the arms off ........advanced MacDonald drills will have a little right arm pick up and a little throw at the bottom perhaps but thats for another day.

Take a golf club and with it approx parallel to the ground and behind you as if in Release pre impact hook the club head around something. A hand rail, the upright on a golf cart , your caddies hands . Now forget golf moves , de program all you know about golf. I want you to pull this club length wise like a rope in a tug of war game. Pull it . Did you employ some golf moves , spinning hips or something ? Don't . Pull on the rope . Homer said "pull with whatever you can pull with , pull with your ears if you want". Do you feel how your body is braced , your feet are planted and solid , how your using your weight and your core and not your arms only .


This is easiest to see with the imaginary tug of war rope parallel to the ground but in golf for the swinger this longitudinal acceleration , pulling on the rope length wise , arrow from quiver deal actually begins in Startdown . It is the opposite of radial acceleration and delays release so long as the club shaft is moving in a linear manner . Once it move outside the hands radially , CF throws the club head out.

So the "rope" you need to pull longitudinally , length wise , in Startdown is positioned more like in the following diagram from George Knudson. Here was a master describing Homers longitudinal acceleration , pulling , drag loading , downswing sequence in his own words. Body pulls arms. Is this pivot to hands? Not so long as you are directing with the #3 pp. See the top arrow in his diagram and the direction it is pointing in......away from the ball and target!!!! The hands here are moving 3 dimensionally BACWARDS, Down and Out. OTT moves would have the arrow pointed more at the ball the Hands moving FORWARDS , Down and Out. Shortening your backswing to 3/4 or Top will really help when ingraining a longitudinal pull. Try it with little shots first where your hands don't get far enough back to necessitate the "opposite direction" to the target or ball pull at Top . Start with Acquired Motion and then work it to Total Motion. You can even have a little longitudinal in longer chip shots..... in fact thats a great place to feel its magic. It will change your impact immediately. No more laying the turf over a chip via throw away. Simply put you can't throw away if you are in the process of pulling longitudinally.

Nice.
I'll put it in my post collection and see if I'm able to use this in a meaningful way as soon as possible.

Trying to get this back on track .

If we equate #4 pa to a triangle model with the angle formed by the left arm and the line of the shoulders representing the lever in question . The left shoulder being the point where the two lines meet obviously . Given a straight left arm and the fact that the shoulders are fixed in their length two sides of the triangle are predetermined in terms of their length. Any lengthening in the Right Arms side of the triangle , increases the angle at the left shoulder and vice versa. The loading of the #4pp and the firing of #4 power accumulator relating to the bending and extension of this lever or angle. #4 pa being Left Arm Power how ever it is produced.

So agreed the "any point of contact" seems outside of a pure or simplistic 2D geometric model. For the golfer whose motion is 3D the point of contact between left arm and chest will change for different shots. Depending on the amount to which the left arm is raised vertically, the plane of the shoulder turn and the length of the swing etc etc. You can fire #4 with a one degree change in the angle ... Say from 90 degrees to 89 and then back to 91. A mini Pull Minor Basic Stroke with the shaft vertical and the ball played at low point ..... not your normal put or chip shot set up no.

Is Homers "any point of contact" merely an effort to help us locate the angle on a human golfer given the various places it could be formed for different strokes?

No disparagement at all intended to HK's work, He has the application of #4 soo right in many places. BUT. I suggest he might give renewed thought to 6-C-1 #4 and the drawing. In words I would say it is "that piece of rope" that fastens shoulder to upper arm is PP#4 and #4 accumulator is the angle between arm and shoulders just as described. I do not like to think about "ANY point of contact".

HB

It's a combo of right shoulder movement moving the left shoulder together with the left arm pushing on it. Take your stance with out a club, let your left arm hang, go to the top and drive your right shoulder down plane and see how much the left shoulder moves. Now grip your hands together and do it and see how the straight left arm moved the left shoulder much farther. You can pull with the left arm and shoulder, but it's not TGM approved. There's a reason why the left shoulder is hardly mentioned at all in TGM.

Would someone please do a free body, pinned structure diagram of this technique with appropriate force and resultant vectors that will demonstrate a satisfactory operation for a swinging stroke?

Thanks

HB


Ps. Most Engineering Schools grade on the curve.

Wow
 

WOW!

TRYING THIS TOMORROW! :golfcart: :golfcart: :golfcart:


ICT

#4 Motion is dependent on several variables
procedure
plane angle
delivery line
hand path
loading
right shoulder dual agent motion
hip motion
knee action

very much depends on pattern....

All this ideally is compliant with the selected loading...

Field Hockey-swinging
vs.
Lacross hitting-

all things considered.
 

I am considering , when I started this thread, getting the shoulders free to do what they seem to do best- turn around the spine and transmit energy to and as part of the power package- pivot.

The shoulders-full stroke- turn 100 + degrees top to impact and another 100 + to finish. The #4 is maybe 45 degrees top to followthrough.

I am trying to stay away from a new "trick" or compensation for every stroke variation by getting the choulders on track.

hb

CORRECTION- The shoulder turn is not as I stated- the shoulders turn is only about 50 deg. to the next leading/lagging component-the hips. I should have said the pivot -including the shoulders is 110 +/- deg top to impact. the #4 accumulator is limited by by checkrein to about 45 deg. (from the shoulder) which is the range of #4 accumulator.

There was a post made yesterday , By B...., that asked a question that needs an answer. I do not know where it went but I will reconstruct it then answer.

The question asked;
"Are you planning to initiate the downstroke with the 'same' hip turn."

I need to answer at 3 levels;

1. Yes.
2. Yes, with the distance, "intensity" and timing appropriate to the stroke.
3. 3-F-5, #1 AND paragraph #2. I must practice my pivot a lot.

HB

That post was to be expanded but life got in the way.

Another thing, what height will your left arm get to?

Right shoulder?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0


--OR--

High as practically necessary?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMztUEk21KM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIn0jU6vpEs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba3ogrMMb8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7BnM0BCKa4&feature=results_main&playnext= 1&list=PL6702134338FD06BD

This one is a total mess, I can't believe she has a professional(?) instructor. Extra vertabrae, yeh, that's the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIKSt...eature=related

Bumpy

Er,reference that "total mess"; there not called vertebrae Bumpy.:redface:

:o I hadn't even noticed those, could cause problems. I would handle them differently than she does. :eusa pray:

Bumpy

Now I know that their is not enough golf being played out here! Lol!