The aiming point concept can create off plane motion, lss pwer, cbface algnmnt issues
 

How the aiming point concept can create off plane motion, less power, clubface alignment issues.

In the Golfing Machine there is a concept called the aiming point.

6-E-2 THE AIMING POINT CONCEPT The Hands and the Clubhead combine as Clubhead Lag (5-0, 6-C) and can be utilized to execute “Delivery” by directing the Lag Pressure Loading (6-C-2-A) at – and through per 4-0 – an Aiming Point located on the appropriate Delivery Line per 2-J-3 and 7-23. This Aiming Point can be pin-pointed by experiment and experience only, because “normal” Handspeed differs among players. Increased Handspeed and/or Sweep Release moves it aft of its “normal” Handspeed location and decreased Handspeed and/or Trigger Delay moves it forward. 10-24 presents additional detail. The Aiming Point replaces the Ball so you no longer direct the #3 Pressure Point at the Ball but at the Aiming Point just as if it were the Ball – like an explosion shot from sand. Experiment until you grasp the effects of Ball Positioning (2-N).

It falls under “Power Delivery” and “Thrust”. Give or take a few inches it has you direct the clubhead lag feel in your hands at the golf ball, that sits on the plane line, creating an on-plane thrust or force.

It partially based on the simple Machine concept in 1-L where he states:

1. The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force (moving toward the Plane Line).

You didn’t necessarily need to read the Golfing Machine to apply this procedure in your swing – maybe you intuitively knew that since the hands sense the golf club and the golf club hits the ball that you should take this feel in your hands and direct it at the ball – makes sense, and you can do this and hit the ball.

Assuming a single plane downswing – say you are observing a player and you are behind the ball/player looking towards the target – your eyes are perfectly aligned with the plane and sure enough you see the hands come down this plane directly at the same angle that ends up at the ball on the plane line. If we look at the Machine in 1-L – you can again see that you want the grip end of the shaft to be on plane and the hands attached to them are on plane – so you want that moving towards the plane line – and a thrust directed at the ball would seem to support this. So far we don’t have any problems the concept makes perfect sense. In fact if I stood on a chair behind this player’s back and put my eyes on the plane looking down at the ball – again assuming no plane shifts I would see the hands move right towards the plane line – and an aiming point effort at the ball would be very supportive of that motion.

However where the problem begins is that the player’s perspective is not (visually) directly on the plane- your head is well above the angled plane looking down on it. That causes a condition or illusion whereby if you try to thrust towards the ball out on the plane line you can get you hands too far out from you, requiring you to un-cock your wrist, steepen the shaft plane and NOT have your hands moving on that single plane you had envisioned. It would un-cock your left wrist in a “reverse manner” i.e. hands moving up, not the club being pulled out – creating reduced power. In addition, the off-plane motion becomes a problem.

From your perspective as the golfer the thrust of the hands isn’t directed at the ball. Say you are 6 inches before impact with the hands – the thrust isn’t out there at the ball – it’s down plane – WAY in front of the ball. Becuase of your perspective - an apparent thrust towards the ball creates an above plane movement.

In summary, if you have this issue then it most likely is in your movement from putt to full swing – you may play around with putting and chipping where your goal of the shaft immediately after impact being on a flatter plane than you are used to and see if you notice any difference in your results. Again, as a result of your perspective as the golfer looking down at the angled plane – your perception of thrusting out to the plane line can create off-plane club-shaft motions. Likewise an on-plane motion could feel much shallower and create a hand motion that doesn’t nearly make the effort to direct its thrust at the ball but move more in-line with its’ proper geometry. As the hands move down their single plane (theoretically) to their impact hand location – it can have a feeling that they are not move at all out to the plane line where the ball is even though that is the on-plane motion.

And the aiming point concept can create an off target bullet motion, if the sights aren't lined up correctly and the trigger is jerked rather than squeezed. :(

Where is Carmen San Diego's aiming pointr
 

I think the Aiming Point Concept is a problem because if I ask 5 who "understand" TGM I will get 9 explanations. I hold with those who place it in the area of "impact Fix" hand location. Not near the plane line but close to the left toes. (visual). This helps (me) keep my hands down. I agree that if the aiming point is placed on the plane line one may tend to lift the hands.

Could Use much discussion.

GB

Then you completely misunderstand Aiming Point! :(

What what whaaat?? Yes the perspective the golfer sees can make some monitoring if his own swing difficult this is why mirrors lasers and authorized instructors are your friend, this aiming point may be a problem for some but it also may be very valuable to others I wouldn't put it in the useless theorem category that's for sure.

Without the Aiming Point concept, the player is executing an inferior Pivot Controlled Hands procedure, and will find out what real problems are. :crybaby:

Let the misunderstandings begin!
 

LOL! Joe, I am so not an engineer as you must know. :( I am a Humanities guy to the max. Ok, so when I Hit, I Impact Fix, RFT, and drive my shoulder and I can monitor both hand position over the front foot and the club face.

I realized something the hard way last week. Angled Hinge neutralizes a draw lie! So cool! Shot at lots of greens though I lost distance with the stiffer shafts on the ZB's.

Also finally got the courage to slightly close the driver at Impact Fix, helped and hurt as I experimented.

I can "shoot" using the Right Fore-Arm Angle of Approach, or the hand position at IMpact Fix, or I can shape a shot by shooting my hands at diff. positions. That's it?

I still do not quite get the "clap your hands" approach. :read:


ICT

IC, you don't have to be an engineer to see that if you make a straight line hand effort towards Impact Fix, that you won't be Hitting down, but instead will be steering towards the target, because the hands aren't(shouldn't) be traveling down plane at impact, but rather up and in. You must drive PP#3 towards a suitable point on the plane line from the top before release.

That is a stretch- What if the player is using a yellow ball?

hb

Even if your mind is in your hands, but you don't tell the pivot where to send them, the pivot becomes a self-serving travel agent. :sad2:

Almost got it!
 

What about when Yoda says "the hands have to go down!" Hmmm is that why my ball flight is so frackn high and my distance is so puny? :rolleyes: :confused:

ICT

This seems to help a bit...no uncocking just roll?


http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=29695&highlight=Level+left+wrist# post29695

Where did AIMING POINT go?
 

I did say "Could Use much discussion."

Think that is lost, Too bad.

hb

What that's about is good advice! PP#3 is driven down plane toward the Aiming Point, which is what I tried, but apparently failed, to convey above.

Steering could cause those things and worse.

IC, "no uncocking", seriously???? To help what? We're talking about Aiming Point.

hb, I thought we were discussing it - as I said above, it's a point on the plane line(usually at or near the ball location) at which you direct PP#3 with the pivot(or right tricep) from the top.

The idea is to guarantee Imperative #3, A straight Plane Line. From the top, the LFW along with the sweetspot, rotated into it, and, ideally, the Right Shoulder also on the plane of the LFW, is driven by the Right Shoulder toward the Aiming Point on the Plane Line. Down to release of #2, both PP#3 and the sweetspot are heading for the Aiming Point. Sometime after The left wrist starts uncocking, Throwout kicks in, at which point the hands appear to the golfer to be arcing to the left, as the LFW moves off plane with the left shoulder moving up and back. At that point, a line from PP#3 through the sweetspot, is still tracing the Plane Line. Once Throwout has kicked in and the LFW is moving off plane, the Aiming Point's purpose has been fulfilled.

But some, forgetting about PA#3, apparently think driving PP#3 at a point on the Plane Line will cause the hands to go flying out over the plane line. :eyes:

Say it ain't so Joe! This is not correct and goes against one of the key concepts of the golfing machine and a 3dimensional impact. The hands and clubhead move DOWN and OUT through an even past impact all the way to low point only then do they begin to move up even in the follow through the thrust direction is still down plane.

It ain't so only if you don't have enough club head lag to get your hands to impact fix before the club head gets to the ball or else you're playing the ball off your right toe. If the club head is properly lagged, it will still be traveling down and out while the hands are moving up and in.

mmm no, the hands still go down and out

Hmmmm, someone's not in a teaching mood.
 

My mistake.

For the some TGM students and for me, I know/suspect it is rather confusing to get to IMpact Fix, be able to shape shots dependably and control the target line, but lack power consistently. :(

I was hoping that perhaps because of the title of this thread, I might get help understanding why I am losing power through understanding the aiming point concept which I have read but cannot picture. Obviously, I showed my lack of understanding by asking a question which tends to happen with real questons. I won't stop asking sadly, I guess, for some of you. :naughty:

Perhaps the Lyme disease meds are still clouding me up. But so what?

I answer hundreds of stupid questions a day, with more grace than shown here. I have discovered over the last couple of years that a lot of times students just need the encouragement to know they are getting warmer so they can discover the insight if they keep focusing on a certain concept. But that's my business and my concern as a professional teacher.

Thinking "win-win" is really helpful on an electronic posting site, I believe. Sometimes, really dumb questions can stimulate new trains of thought and new ideas. Otherwise, no one writes and no one answers except those that "know everything."

Lynn, happily, is a really good teacher and knows a lot. :)

ICT

Ict the aiming point can make your release automatic. The aim point can be utilized by simply picking a spot on the ground at, slightly in front of or slightly behind the ball. It is a very small range we're talking about here about a three inch range it's very precise. For the driver say have the aiming point slightly behind the ball and thrust the number three pressure point with a cocked left wrist directly at the aiming point this will create an automatic release and power can be metered out precisely. For a wedge move the aiming point slightly in front of the ball, 7 iron right at the ball. You will have to experiment with different aiming points for your own swing. However only once the mechanics of trigger delay and release are learned can you really utilize the aim point. Of course the farther forward the aim point the more delayed the release but don't get crazy with it, it's a small range this is where clampett and others got it wrong. You can't aim so far forward that there is no hinge no uncock and roll the release must sufficiently precede impact

Very thoughtful, thanks!
 

Does JB Holmes use an exaggerated aiming point as he shows the Golf Channel on his video? I will experiment. I was aiming my # 3 at the inside quadrant of the ball as I drove my shoulder and Power Package down.

ICT

NO this is just another example of an individual with quasi-tgm info that they got wrong. he is driving the hands to the impact hand location. this is NOT the aiming point.

that is a good place to aim it.. inside aft quadrant

Only until they start moving up and in, well before impact!!!

Any good slo-mo of a good player would do, but I've used this one to make the point more compelling. This is a very high fps video, and when the white-gloved left hand just reaches the right thigh, the left wrist is still fully cocked. When the white glove just reaches the zipper, the clubhead is still a full 4 feet from the ball and descending, and the hands are already starting to move upward!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2o1SYXaOHE

There are many other examples on Youtube, which will show the same thing, some even more dramatic, but this is the Swing that held all 4 major titles at the same time, and is above reproach.

Seriously whip, you need to study this phenomenon, especially if you are teaching people to reach impact with the hands moving down and out. :exclaim:

O u can't be serious, of course tiger does it with his god awful jump twist because he lunged down three feet and he's hitting the ball off a tee and the driver is much closer to low point than any other club sorry Joe not very compelling, just think about this ur telling a golfer to pull his hands up and the clubhead down during impact that's the last thing homer intended, the hands go down and out and continue to thrust down plane even in the follow through. Ok golfers I want u to hit down on the ball but right before impact I want u to pull up cuz mizunojoe told me I'm destroying your golf swing by telling you to hit down and out through impact... Lol. Regardless if any one player can demonstrate that the hands move up before impact to try an actually go up before impact is a disaster situation for a golfer, always always down and out through the ball. You need to study the golfing machine especially if you are going to post on a Tgm forum, heres the website where you can buy a book Joe www.thegolfingmachine.com

Just when I think you've made the most absurd comment possible, you top yourself with the next one! :laughing1

Do u have the book? What's absurd is u telling golfers to pull up the hands right before impact

I owned the book before you even existed. :book:

I didn't say that it should be done as a deliberate action. It happens because impact hands location for a good swing is past low point of the hands, which are being pulled up and in by the left shoulder.

So, let's look at the Impact picture 9-3-10 on pg. 131 in the book(6th ed). Look at the white hand path and look at where the hands are at Impact - they are on the upward arc. They have passed their low point and are moving upward at Impact.

I'll give u that and I understand the left shoulder is pulling upward however wether u meant it as a deliberate action or not this what golfers are reading and homer wants u to swing the hands down plane down down down. Sure the hand path of golfers may not ever be a straight line as in the straight line delivery path but the effort is a straight line and other instances the effort of what your Trying to accomplish for the desired results is what matters even if sometimes it is not as literal as some of the things in the book. Homer Said to not be a hacker u had to have a flat left wrist does this mean if u don't have a flat left wrist then u absolutely cannot hit a golf ball with power and accuracy. No it doesn't he cant say that but would I recommend otherwise, no would I recommend pulling the hands upward before impact, no I would tell any student to hit down an through the ball with a strong focus on the word down, maybe incidentally his hands will be minutely on the upswing at impact for a driver. fine but the effort should always be down and out.

Nice to hear from you Mike . You've taken some time to compose this thread so I want to make the effort to understand you fully . I don't have an opinion to be frank , as I don't follow you. Nothing new in the world of Homer Kelley, eh?

Couple of questions for clarification :

-Are you saying the above will happen given an attempt to thrust along the eye line to the ball? The eye line to the ball being steeper than the plane angle.

-Dont understand how in your geometry the hands would be moving "up" and uncocking the left wrist which makes me think I've lost you somewhere.

Ive always imagined the Aiming Point Procedure as being , from Top a throwing like motion towards the aiming point (normally the ball but you can adjust fore and aft to fight the rate at which the various lengths of levers switch ends. Hey have you ever goofed with a MOI matched set of irons?) A throwing or spearing chucking like motion but the geometric equivalent to Tracing albeit with a very different set of intentions and probably physics too. Thats my take on it in short.

By the way , your logic makes me see a complication with Plane Shifts on the downswing (very common in the field) Which would have the straight line direction of Thrust travelling a single plane angle which is above the curved (from DTL) path of the hands would it not? Hmmm.

Regards
ob

As easy as reaching for a cup of tea!
 

Pre-turned right hip makes Extensor Action easy and accurate. Pointing the #3 Pressure Point at an Aiming Point is all the invitation the golf club needs to accelerate through the point shaping high draws or low fades as required.

Thanks Whip!

ICT

OB,
To limit the discussion I've picked out the above two questions. Could always cover the others in future posts if you want to re-ask or pursue them. However, the above two questions I percieve to be most on topic.

1-Are you saying the above will happen given an attempt to thrust along the eye line to the ball? The eye line to the ball being steeper than the plane angle.

Yes that's basically it. However, let me clarify. Again, just to keep this simple we're using a single plane downswing. The fact that your head and eyes are above the swing plane looking towards the ball - and you naturally thrust- i.e. move towards where your eyes are looking - that is getting your hands to cover the ball visually i.e. eventually get between your eyes and the target. It seems counter intuitive to make an on-plane motion i.e. hands & clubshaft headed to the ball by visually directing them somewhere else than the ball - but that is what you need to do from your vantage point above the plane.

Clarification: The hands don't thrust down the eye line but since they start flatter than that - in this aiming point concept they'll have a tendency to eventually end up on the eye-line - then the hands will move above the original single plane downswing.

Based on various factors I'm not saying that the hands will end up between the eyes and the ball however they'll have a tendency to move towards that - steepening the plane - if you are thrusting towards the ball. By steepening the plane - I mean the clubshaft plane at impact. Becuase the hands move above the original single plane that we started with - the hands actually moved flatter - ended up above the original single plane - requiring the shaft to be steeper in order to hit the ball - which the uncocking allowed to happen.

Here's one example of what I would use as an experiment to see this for yourself. Sit in your desk chair at the house and lean the grip end of a club on the armrest and have the clubhead on the floor ahead of your feet - basically representing a plane angle. Note where the plane line would be, the ball etc., now take your hands down that shaft angle, having the hands move in front of your body like a real swing and see if you feel as if they are moving towards a point inside the plane line. Now do the other option - thrust them at a point on the plane line and see when they get to impact if they are slightly above the plane.

This falls under the category and you have to understand what perspective you are analyzing movement - on the one hand the hands are coming right down the plane towards the plane line from a 3rd person perspective, however with that same movement - from the 1st person perspective - you can't be trying to move them towards the plane line given your perspective. What's happening and what you are trying to do to make that happen are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. That's an important principle that the golf industry and probably the scientific movement industry has not yet understood.

2-Dont understand how in your geometry the hands would be moving "up" and uncocking the left wrist which makes me think I've lost you somewhere.
Good question for clarificaton - what I meant was compared to the original single plane - that is the hand position at the top - through to the ball/plane line - when using the aiming point on the plane line as discussed above. The hands would tend to be higher at impact than the original plane - so you could say that the hands would move flatter from the top - creating higher hands at impact - and therefore to hit the ball - a steeper shaft - allowed by uncocking the wrist more. You make a good point - the hands don't move up - just less down and higher than the original single plane that we are using in our theoretical example to understand the concept. Therefore I was saying that you'd be more uncocked just in order for the clubhead to hit the ball than the original single plane.

Appreciate the questions - allowed me to learn a few things myself and completely understand why you would be asking those as it wasn't clearly explained in my original outline. Check it out for yourself and look forward to your feedback.

But...
 

Mike O

First-I agree with you.
Second- The Aiming Point Concept still needs a real conversation.

Question- Re: First
Thesis, The Aiming Point is located on the plane line and lifting the hands is a concern. If, My aiming point is on the plane line at the left rear quadrent of the ball. How the heck am I going to hit the ball and maintain alignments ???

Question- Re: Second
What I said above and in #3 ?

HB

You wouldn't hit the ball AND maintain alignments.
However, what alignments are you worried about and/or referring to? Again theoretically, let's say you wanted the hands and clubshaft to BOTH move on the same downswing plane into impact. That wouldn't happen in my example in my previous post. So that's one "alignment" that wouldn't be maintained - an on plane hand and clubshaft motion. If you started with a level lead wrist - then that's a second alignment that wouldn't be maintained.

The fact that people mis-understand a Golfing Machine concept is nothing new - you can see it every day. Does any concept need real conversation for those that don't understand it - absolutely. I think his quote in the first post of this thread is quite clear. I guess you'd either need to ask a question, make a statement, or argue a point to begin the conversation. However, we'd need to clarify - is the conversation about the Golfing Machine concept as understood in the Golfing Machine book or are you wanting a conversation with new information or perspective, otherwise it would become quite confusing for some.

Nice Mike.
 

As I explained, I was looking for increased power with better understanding and based on the last night's implementation of Whip's insight at the range, Extensor Action is easier to implement and power on plane is easier as a result.

I recognized some of the subtleties last night but mainly in terms of Lynn's video clips. As a visual learner, I really have to read the book often and let it perc until a video clicks in.

For some reason, lots of the quotes I search out seem really clear. Anyway... :)

ICT

Let it start with The Book, should it stray call it up short then.

Statement- I (likely many) have spent time trying to train my hands to make a motion that obeys "good" alignments rules, even, when this training caused me to miss hit.

Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.

Statement - Experimenting with "points" on the plane line has not been a helpful concept for me.

--------------later----------------------------------------------------------

Ah-ha moment. Reading 7-23 par. #3, HK may have insight in recognizing line delivery and compensations when necessary.
Understand it I may experiment. My procedure had been, If U care, to have a "feel" fo release position backing up from impact fix, a practice memory over the range of clubs.

HB

Only if you haven't trained them not to. As Ben Doyle says, "you have to train your sheep dogs or else they'll kill all your sheep".

This is where you can learn from the Cowboy Fast Draw Association. They have taught themselves to draw, fire, and hit a target 20 feet away in .04 secs without bringing the sights up to eye level, by shooting from the hip. If they can do that, why can't you can learn to drive PP#3 at the ball without sighting down the hand path? :dontknow:

Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.
Big Subject Hungry Bear - let's try to limit it to the basics to begin with.
7th edition revision
8. PG 83, 6-E-2, new paragraph "Remember - Aiming Point concerns only - 1. Clubshaft Length, 2. Handspeed and, 3. Release Point - regardless of Ball Location."
This is the essence of the aiming point procedure. Now, let's use the same player so we have the same handspeed - simplifies the variables in our theoretical discussion of the concept. Now, you have different length clubshafts and the longer ones take longer to come "in-line", so you need to release those earlier. One way of creating an automatic release is via the aiming point concept. If you move it back of the ball you release earlier if you move it forward of the ball you release later. So theoretically these aiming points are going to change with the length of the club - for the same player, same handspeed. That is the longer the club the more you move the aiming point back.

Statement - Experimenting with "points" on the plane line has not been a helpful concept for me.
Same for me. Procedurally/practically you are not consciously picking different aiming points for different length clubs. You are subconsciously and via feel because you wouldn't pick a aiming point well forward for a driver as you would a wedge - you would intuitively sense that you wouldn't have time to release the driver in time for a square contact.

This brings up a Golfing Machine issue - he writes with precision and A) you wonder if you are not being precise enough in implementation and B) you wonder if you fully understand his concepts, how they tie together, etc. Brings up a good story - Trigger types - one of the last things he put in the book - he figured something must trigger the release. Again, another "natural" item - you do it but not really on a calculated conscious perspective. These guys are in one of his classes and really trying to dig down and understand these trigger types - like how do I do it, use it, etc. - one of the few times you heard HOmer "lose it" or sense his frustration and he just said something to the effect that when you get here - point in the downswing - you push your arm for a arm throw trigger - just something really simple.

Joe,
You'd need to provide a different example or fully explain how you are using the same principle I'm talking about - moving the hands somewhere. I don't see the apples to apples relationship for someone pulling a gun out of a holster and pointing it at a target without lining it up with their eyes.
Thanks