primary lever length at impact
 

ive been thinking about the effect of primary lever length at impact, my opinion is that for a swinger maximum power at impact would be the clubshaft and left arm In-line, the butt of the club pointing exactly at the left shoulder. Vs for a hitter this would be less important, more dependent on the thrust against the shaft and the left arm and club shaft being directly in line would be less important. so say at impact one swinger has the left arm and clubshaft in-line exactly vs a player who has the shaft leaning forward outside the left shoulder, who is utilizing the primary lever better? I would think that if it were inline the lever would be longest, but really the length of the left arm and clubshaft are maintained. any thoughts on this? of course this is more tour players concern as most golfers have trouble getting the flat left wrist at all

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I don't think so. The farther ahead the hands are at impact, the later the release, and so more head speed, because the max speed is attained shortly after release point and then starts slowing.

I don't have my book with me but I don't think that's quite right my understanding is that once the club starts releasing it reaches maximum speed and maintains that speed trough the interval it does not pick up speed or slow down unless u slow it down by manipulating it.

If that were true, you could just uncock at the very top and wait for the constant maximum speed clubhead to get to the ball.

Bucket .... Where are you good buddy? Give us some "encountering the pulley wheel" stuff Man. Shaft lean and delofting vs max radius.

Who cares how far a guy can hit a mid iron via shaft lean , delofting? What the heck kind of gap control has he got? And how far can he hit a long iron? If its about the same he has a real problem.

I question "more head speed" above , respectfully. More "hand speed" maybe .

The shot may go farther when struck in the above manner for mid to low irons due to delofting. Radius and loft are the factors in distance .... the delofting stops working as you get into into the longer, less lofted clubs.

no that would just mean the velocity would be less, the sooner you uncock the less velocity per the endless belt. It doesnt change that the given clubhead speed is maintained however early or late it's released. so to me this would say that it it would make a miniscule difference based on the loft of the face and the distance it achieves because of it, like what ob says

What about a driver and JB Holmes?
 

I'm interested since I'm hitting the ball well now. If I fire my arms to "Both Arms Straight" and get them farther ahead of the ball, shouldn't I enjoy greater distance given a closer right shoulder? But JB says he Swings so my theory is not settled. :eh:

ICT

Even if it is true that a sweep releaser's max head speed is sustained to impact through the free-wheeling stage of uncocking(which I don't believe), a snap release increases the uncocking speed by the momentum imparted to the club as the hands hit the end of their straight line effort path - the "hard" release, and therefore has a higher max head speed. This is true kinetic chain snapping, and isn't available to the sweep releaser.

As for hand speed, in the TSP Swing, the hands should only move as fast as they are driven downplane by the right shoulder to release point. The hands should get ahead because of the pivot and a late release, not by hand/arm effort, which is steering.

That sounds like 4-barrel Hitting - drive the right shoulder partially downplane and then fire the right triceps to uncock the left wrist before CF starts uncocking it. If you fire too late, you'd be a switter, and run outa town like a mangy dog. :laughing9

Lots of variables for this to achieve the status of axiomatic....

Look at the pics in the first post...grip type is a HUGE difference....also...fat jack BOMBED it.....hands forward ala Gainey vs. Nicklaus.....Players like Lee Buck/Gainey have to get the amount of shaft lean to have the face open enough so they don't hit it left of left....for mere mortals could be problematic....cats like Mac O'Grady Philly McGlennerd ....love the shaft lean but may air mail a green by hitting a 7 iron 210....it may look sexier .... but who's packin' the hardware???

Umm 77 from "pure" Hitting !
 

I was going to buy a new driver at least but I cannot think of why I should put the Adam Red Line 9.5 with the senior shaft away.

I hit 13/13 drives in Regulation and the avg. was almost 240 yards. Would a "hotter" driver help? :(

8 GIR, 33 puts - 3 birdies. The Paul Runion putting and putting my chips had me all over the pin so that there was only two 3 putts on "14" stint greens. 5-one putt greens = 2 close chips for gimmies of less than a foot and two 8 footers= and one 40 foot bomb! :laughing1

My real problem was not believing how solid the Hitting line is so I would fail to take dead aim mostly until the back and then I started pin-hunting. My last 3 nines were 40, 39 and 38.

Impact Fix +RFT + Right shoulder drive to right triceps + Runion techniques = 5 over par! I hit two holes with longish putts that lipped out. Next time-dead aim to the middle of all greens! :laughing9

ICT

nice...

is one better geometry than the other? does one have more power/physics

Depends on the player/shot at hand/preferences/grip type/all that trackman stuff/......lots of variables to manipulate.....

Would be interesting to see how much shaft lean the greats produced with say a 5 iron....a few ways to lean it too...lean AND raise the handle up...Lean it and don't...with the hands with the body or both...Hogan and Nicklaus didn't produce huge amounts of lean...one had lots of #2 to let out and the other one didn't...Lee Buck opposite end of spectrum...better get the right amount of lean to get the face open enough not to start the ball left.







So you can see the other side of the angle of attack is the angle of ascent....another strong gripper like Lee Buck is Couples but his "arc" is gonna be "shorter"...quicker rate of ascent...faster "recocking" through the ball...thus hits a higher ball...

I am not debating the fact that a snap release can have more speed than a sweep release, I am only addressing your statement that after release it starts slowing

from 2-m-1 basic power
...Centrifugal acceleration is staunchly proportional to the angular speed of its center and reaches a maximum speed almost instantly after release and tries to remain constant...

a sweep release can still be a true kinetic chain.

the flat left wrist and clubshaft being in-line with the left arm is the number one geometrical alignment of the circle. arguably the basis for precision geometry, gainey and trevino's strong grips and forward lean have geometry of their own but it is not congruent with the machine concept's geometry.

btw i like their strong grips with the shaft lean over exaggerated forward lean with a normal grip and ARCHED left wrist as we see some tgmers focusing only on forward lean and not realizing that it is within the context of the structure, the release, the roll, the geometry, and the flat left wrist. The clubhead should be in-line like nicklaus to produce the machine concept's intended geometry.

So because it reaches maximum speed shortly after release and stays constant a ball hit Well prior to full extension vs. one that is hit just prior to full extension will have the same speed as long as you do not disturb the force. this would mean that a ball position further back in the stance will produce a shot that may go further (given the same release point and all other factors being equal) because they will have equal speed but one with less loft turning a pw into a short 8 iron like ob says. although gainey has a similar ball position to nicklaus', it's as if gainey is playing the ball way back in his stance. the extreme forward lean and delay facilitated by the strong left hand grip like bucket said

sweep release or random sweep users can still produce a clubhead speed equal to their snap release counterpart with a high turning speed or high hand speed.

Like the clubhead, I've tried a lot of things that didn't quite make it! :laughing9

As long as u keep turning it won't slow down it will remain constant

the sweep releaser with his large pulley can have less velocity and more thrust, and with a high turning speed, and or high hand speed can produce a speed equal to a snap releaser who's hand speed is limited (for a given player), as snap release noticeably restricts maximum hand speed homer's words...

If you think that the clubhead is slowing down after it uncocks you are completely missing the pulley concept.

true kinetic energy is certainly available to a sweep releaser, as long as the hips pull the shoulders ,pulls the arms, pulls the hands, pulls the shaft, pulls the clubhead all the way through the ball.

who brought up hand/arm effort anywhere? if the hands are seeking their delivery line this is not steering.


mj maybe you are thinking of impact deceleration which is a completely separate factor. when the club releases the angular momentum is proportionate to the turning speed. there are so many power sources that can be configured in so many ways, snap release, random sweep, sweep release, hitting, swinging, overlapped accumulators, sequenced accumulators, turning speed, hand speed, swing radius, thrust, velocity, etc... there is more than one way to create maximum distance for a given player, some create speed one way others another way.

try harder, no quitting

1st bolded - In a TSP Swing, your hand speed is limited by right shoulder speed, unless you throwaway #4, which is pivot power, in which case even if you could spin like a politician, it won't do much good. And, if you're also sweep releasing, which is #2 throwaway, you've thrown away your two power sources! And, even if #4 isn't thrown away, why could someone turn faster sweeping than snapping?

2nd bolded - No it won't remain constant in the real world - too much friction in the human machine - remember the word "tries"?

3rd bolded - You are carrying the pulley analogy too far. In the golf swing, the pulley section is less than 90 degs, not 180, and the hand speed isn't constant as it is in the endless belt pulley.

4th bolded - I brought it up. If you over accelerate the hands from the top and sweep release, you will have to steer to get the hands to beat the club head to the ball.

5th bolded - And if my Aunt had testicles, she would be my Uncle, which would also be a completely separate factor.

6th bolded - You can't push a shopping cart any faster than you can run, no matter how hard you try.

you seem to be under the impression that as soon as you release the club you start losing energy and speed so you better jam it as far down there as late as possible so that you don't have time to lose speed, this is not correct. A sweep release has a larger pulley than a snap release, how is this "taking the pulley analogy too far" and what are you talking about when you say 90 degrees, 180 degrees?? and the handspeed "not constant as in the endless belt" not sure what you mean there either. "you can't push a shopping cart any faster than you can run"... and??
Also homer wrote a book based on laws OF THE REAL WORLD not sure what you mean by friction in the human machine or why the principles don't hold up in "the real world".

Mike O would like to get your aunt's phone number......

Another brilliant geometric golf set of insights!
 

LMAO! :laughing9

Two points
 

1) Can someone PM me innercity's address?
2) Whip - The section you quoted regarding Angular speed - that's RPM's - not clubhead speed. So Homer's contention is that the RPM's of the lever assembly stays constant upon release for the swinger and slowed slightly for the hitter based on measurements he made from photos in The Search for the Perfect Swing however realize the clubhead is picking up significant speed during release - due to lever extension etc. No book but I think the Release Section is the period of clubhead acceleration. Anyway a common mis-read that continues to confuse.

Interesting insight Mike thanks.

Correct he says that the centrifugal acceleration reaches maximum speed shortly after release and tries to remain constant, this is separate from clubhead speed which per the endless belt picks up speed significantly as the lever is extended going around the pulley.

Mike, PM me and I'll give it to you! You know how much I like humor!


ICT

I was able to see that you understood and agreed with my post however I was not sure I was able to exactly comprehend your entire post. If I were to summarize an area I don't think you had quite right then I would say that you were saying - Once the swinger's left wrist uncocks to a level position the clubhead no longer picks up speed.

That would only be true for a zero number three accumulator. The release in reference to the endless belt refers to number two and number three accumulators, once the left wrist uncocks to level then the roll of the number three accumulator adds significant clubhead speed for the swinger, that's why you have it in shots where you want additional power.

Unpacking and dissecting
 

Is the point of the "endless belt" that it always moves at a constant rate of speed? I wouldn't think HK would violate the physics of the planet in that way though it is a good analogy for everything else.

ICT

Not really, most of the power comes from the uncocking left wrist, while throwout is principally the delivery mechanism. It's primary power function is to sustain compression in the impact interval and maximize separation velocity. Also, you have throwout in all shots, not just those which require additional power.

sorry if my post was confusing, i hadn't factored in the #3, you are right that angle is a power source of its own and when transferred by the #2 supplies considerable power.

Once the club is released it IS NOT slowing down by any means, so the idea that we must delay the thing long enough so we don't have time to lose speed is not correct. make no mistake the club must be released sufficiently in time to uncock, roll and hinge. Homer has no sympathy for anyone who overemphasizes any one thing or another. with tgmers it tends to be forward lean, and trigger delay, you can't just skip the hinge motion, the hinge is one of the key elements to controlling the golf ball.

when the hands move around the pulley portion of the endless belt the clubheads speed will pick up considerably as it flies out around the pulley extending the lever length. in other words during release the hands move a short distance and yet the clubhead will move some 3 feet or so at the same time. we need not speed up the hands during release to get clubhead speed, constant hand speed is a tgm virtue

Agreed - absolutely!

As a side note - since Homer makes the distinction - I'd be very clear when you write it for others sake- that is what you mean by "club". The clubhead picks up MPH during release and the clubshaft maintains it's RPM's during release. For what it's worth.

When snap releasing, the hands slow precipitously in the release interval. They also slow in a sweep release, but not as dramatically. Constant hand speed exists only in the endless belt model.

according to what?

Agreed constant hand speed is assumed in the endless belt analogy for illustrative purposes only. Actual constant hand speed when swinging would imply no rate of acceleration therefor no Lag Pressure wouldn't it? Something a few GSED's got wrong maybe? You don't want to swing the hands at a constant speed......and how could you do that anyways? Slow and steady acceleration may feel like a constant hands speed however...

Right arm participation
 

I must remind myself, any time I think about trigger delay and snap release, to use care of Right Arm Geometry. The limits are set by ability to maintain the Right Flying Wedge all the way to impact. There is a trap that is seen too often. The right forearm must be thrown, slap, into impact and not allow the sholder, elbow, hands to stall and have, what I call, a FAUX pp#3 by unbending the right wrist to hold #3 pressure by "flipping"
it against the shaft. There are also right arm participation limitations to "snap relase".

just my own thinking
hb

Of course, I didn't invent any of this:
For an articulate view:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...6202#post26202


One more comment:
I do not feel the right wrist "froze" in place by any effort of the right wrist, but, held in place by the alignments of the right forearm, elbow, shoulder, axis tilt and pivot. ie. the right wrist alignment is a result.

what??? of course there would be lag pressure ob, they didnt get it wrong. YOU DO WANT TO SWING THE HANDS AT A CONSTANT SPEED, you move them at the same speed, you are not speeding up down there, constant hand speed is not hard at all, why are you guys saying constant hand speed is not possible???

according to what information do you make this statement?

With more time , tonight maybe , I can support my position with book reference. But for instance period of shoulder acceleration , period of arm acceleration etc.... how can these things be speeding up if the hands are not? Lag pressure is a product of the rate of acceleration of the hands. Now to do that without the rate dropping off, to sustain lag pressure in other words you have to start down slow and build it up at a steady rate. No over acceleration to a rate that can't be maintained. In so doing it may feel very slow in terms of build up of hand speed. Thinking its a constant speed , though false , may help you in this effort. In other words its feels constant but it isn't.

once the machine reaches the period of release (clubhead acceleration) the hands do not need to be speeding up around the pulley nor do they have to slow down, constant handspeed. what is your alternative? speed up, slow down, during release? Good luck with focusing on the alternatives. Constant handspeed allows the structure, the mass of our extensor action, our wrists, centrifugal force, and rhythm of all zones working in harmony to produce power and accuracy that is literally effortless

Ok I'll strap a speedometer to my hand and take some golf swings, I'm betting i can keep a constant hand speed throughout the release.

A little data
 

When the Physics may become complicated a little data may help:

http://www.mytpi.com/images/pdfs/Kin...nDownswing.pdf

HB