Left wrist cock causes more right wrist cupping
 

As a newbie to TGM, I am trying to come up to speed as quickly as possible with the nomenclature and fundamentals. Please bear with me....

The question I have is related to the extra "cupping" I get in the right wrist if/when I cock the left wrist in the back swing.

From the various TGM and LBG videos I've watched, I know:

1) The importance of maintaining the left and right arm flying wedges throughout the swing.
2) The Left Wrist can cock in the vertical plane (i.e. but it can't rotate or turn).
3) The right forearm needs to be on plane with the shaft and the right wrist needs to be at the same flying wedge angle as impact fix no later than the top of the backswing.
4) Lynn espouses that the angle of the right flying wedge should be maintained throughout the swing (or well into the finish).

When I cock the left wrist, however, the right wrist is bent back (i.e. "cupped" in Ben Hogan-speak) much further than the angle at impact fix (the right forearm is still on plane, however).

Because the grip of the right hand is such that the left thumb fits into the life-line of the right hand, it would seem that ANY cocking of the left hand would automatically change the angle of the right wrist as well.

To me it seems that if you want to take advantage of any wrist cocking (power accumulator # ??), you can't possibly maintain a constant right wrist angle.

Hopefully, I described my confusion in the proper terms...

Look towards what the relationship between the bending right arm and left wrist cock action is.

Could type a big giant reply....but seeing is believing....here are model wedge alignments....level unstressed froze right wrist...when you have your right wrist level with an open hand if you were to extend your arm parallel to the ground your fingers would point down to the ground on a diagonal....level is pretty close to uncocked....this may not be what people think of as the sexiest swing...but these wedge alignments are freakin' perfect....NO COCKING IN THE RIGHT WRIST AT ALL...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s9mnavVMjk&feature=fvsr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...U&feature=fvwp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic5El...eature=related

Its very grip type dependent too. A 10-2-D would see the left wrist cocking bend the right hand proportionaly for instance.
Send a photo of your grip maybe and your backswing from down the line. I wouldn't do that personally given the nut bars around here but ....

Unfortunately, the videos that you reference are inaccessible at this precise moment.

However, the other Steve Stricker Youtube videos that are visible show a swing with minimal (if any) left wrist cocking in the backswing (in my very inexperienced and humble opinion).

I'm OK with this but I just can't figure out how you can accomplish a cocking left wrist without also cupping the right wrist to an equal extent. It just doesn't seem possible.

Try making a backswing without a club. Right arm bends from the get go of the backswing takeaway. They work together. If you only cock the left wrist and keep the elbow in the same bent, then you screw up the right wrist alignment.

Interesting bit of reverse engineering Doctor. Never thought of that one.

I think I have the answer to my question. Please respond if my understanding is still incorrect.

According to Lynn in the Drills DVD (under the drill entitled "Educating the Right Wrist"), the right wrist can "turn and roll".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbYclp_xvYU

However, another video taken from YouTube ("Dowels Wedges") shows Lynn saying that the right is wrist is incorrectly positioned by "cocking and uncocking".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skz9eYvtTJc


As an aside, I think I understand the subtleties between turning/rolling and cocking/uncocking. However, Lynn's wrist action seems very similar in both these particular cases (even though he said one was correct and the other incorrect).


Back to the point, I can only assume that the act of rolling the right wrist allows the left wrist to cock in the backswing while maintaining the correct impact fix flying wedge of the right forearm.

Sorry, but in both videos at the :08 mark, the right wrist has clearly cocked up from the LEVEL(partially uncocked) position. ANY swing in which the club is swung up over the right shoulder with the shaft pointing targetward, even if not horizontal, HAS to cock the right wrist. Were his right wrist level at the Top, the shaft would point straight up or backwards. Most tour players cock the right wrist, and just because TGM prescribes otherwise, the reality can't be denied. :naughty:

I'm not seeing that..... but fine with me...bottom line is this dude's right wrist is as close to motionless as far as cocking goes as it gets....I'm pretty sure that reality can't be denied as well. Certainly Stricker has less motion than most....I still stand by the statement that his wedge alignments are model according to strict definition. But of course people can do whatever they want with their components....but I think Stricker's wedge alignments are as precise as anybody's....not big on some of the other stuff he does but I dig the wedges.

Not to beat a dead horse, but....

I'm agreement with both of you.

1) Steve Stricker's swing looks like a picture perfect model of the TGM flying wedge alignments.
2) it looks like Stricker has minimal or zero left wrist cock.


The more I think I about this, the more I've come to the conclusion that if the hands are joined together (without slippage), the only way one could cock a flat left wrist while maintaining the fixed impact angle in the right wrist would be if the right wrist angle was 90 degrees (i.e. the right wrist is perpendicular to the left wrist). OR the right elbow is flying all over the place...


Nonetheless, I'm OK with the fundamental ideals and am not looking to get too hung up in the minutia. I just want to make sure I have the basic Mechanics correct so that I don't groove the incorrect feel.

Ckniker.

I haven't been thinking about the frozen right wrist for a while, but I have found something that is very solid back and through, while working mainly with the pivot. But it is hardly a coincidence that the right wrist is level bent at the top and remains so throughout the down stroke.

You can match the left wrist cocking and uncocking with the right elbow bending and straightening. When you get it, there is no limit as to how much left wrist cock you can apply. But you need a setup and a rhythm that makes the left wrist cock blend in with a frozen right wrist / bending and straightening of the right elbow.

In order to make it work you also need to move the whole primary lever (left arm plus club) as one single unit . No independant & flippy club motion. But that is also a BIG reason for doing it. You also need a fundamentally sound posture with sufficient forward tilting of your spine / sufficient steep down swing shoulder turn, amongst other things. .

When you make it work, the right hand and arm becomes a very powerful companion to the left side and you're set for a super solid impact. If you like to hit, you can hit it hard and if you prefer to swing you've set yourself up to brace your impact alignment with a rock solid extensior action.

Any cocking and uncocking of the right wrist may disrupt the rhythmic relationship between the left arm and the club, and may induce a flip or at least a discontinuity in the lag pressure - at least to the extent that you actually use the right hand in the down stroke. If you're a swinger with little or no extensior action the frozen right wrist is less important.

Homer likened to it an airplanes landing gear, me I like the pneumatic door closer. Try spreading your hands apart on the shaft to see how the right hand does not need to cock necessarily.

I'm not sure I understand the airplane landing gear analogy but spreading the hands apart helps to visualize what should be going on with the right wrist....

Thanks to all....

You could cock the right wrist ....lots of guys do, but it adds precious little to power and breaks the Right Forearm Flying Wedge . Something you would have to re align prior to Impact if you want it structural advantage. So why bother if simplification is a goal.

Lynn told me that a one armed golfer might need to cock the right hand. Food for thought.

Try chipping with just right arm and feel , see the Structural Advantage of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge through the shot. Once you feel it you'll never want to break it for any shot of any length ......and you dont need to. Its like a battering ram swinging or hitting. And something you can Trace with too. Power and Direction.

(keep the right hand level, the right forearm in line with shaft from DTL, freeze the right wrist in its bent at fix position or bend it back a tad in transition and then freeze it if you prefer, fan and bend the right forearm and right elbow.... and always always try to feel the lag pressure. Youre good , nutted chips with compression will always be accompanied by lag pressure! You can take this one armed chipping very seriously , Tiger does as he warms up before every round. I know a guy who chips like that on the course to overcome his chip yips and hes a good chipper.

A thumb to the shoulder
 

CK - try this drill....

stand without a club in golf posture

make a fist with your left hand and point your thumb away from the target (so the back of the left hand faces away from you, 'turned' 90 degrees)

grab your left thumb 'underhanded' with your right (so if you pointed the right thumb, both thumbs are pointed away from the target)

Now - without doing anything else with the hands - use your right arm to lift your left thumb towards the tip of your right shoulder while keeping the left arm fairly straight

You'll see that the right wrist can, and should, stay in the same position - 'level'

It is the right arm action that allows the left wrist to cock, while the right stays uncocked

This drill has many benefits, come back to it when learning about extensor action :golf:

Hey Edz how are ya man? Wouldnt that be a theoretical Left Shoulder Plane though? Gettin off topic I know but just saying.

Doing well... getting settled in China.

That was a typo on my part! Should have read tip of 'right' shoulder.

I corrected my post.

If you look at the angle of dianes wrist cock you will see that it is less than 90 degrees, the extent of the wrist cock without bending the wrist is minimal, the ideal for geometry would be to not cock the right wrist but most probably do because most cock the left wrist beyond dianes. Physics and geometry neither must be perfect to play great golf

You can have a good amount of #2 at Top without cocking the right hand.

The amount of cup in the left wrist at Top is left hand grip type dependent. It is called Flat but it is not necessarily literally flat for all but the weakest of left hand grips. Research "geometrically flat". And take a look at how when hanging naturally at your side your left forearm and hand are slightly turned , towards your mouth actually , not at a 90 to the target line .....if theres a natural or neutral amount of turn to the left hand grip thats it. This slightly turned condition will have a corresponding cup at top, assuming the plane of the left wrist cock is purely vertical in Homer speak. No horizontal left wrist motion.


And for further food for thought .......if the palm of the left hand ideally lays flat to plane at Top then the only plane angle that would see a corresponding literally flat left wrist would be one that has the entire left arm and left shoulder laying on the plane ......the theoretical Left Shoulder Plane. Which is less than ideal.

In my opinion a lot of guys in trying to create a literally flat left wrist at Top do so via ill advised horizontal left hand motion. An arching, a horizontal motion which breaks the vertical plane of the left wrist cock but gives them the literally flat left wrist they desire. And a left wrist riding a plane that points above the ball. You can compensate , correct it on the Downstroke , lots of guys do, but why bother if simplicity is a goal.

Agreed there can be that tendency and you can have a good amount of 2 without cocking the right wrist but there can be the tendency to cock the right wrist with excessive #2, what I do is lay the flat left wrist on the pads to double check it which is not perfectly anatomically flat slightly cupped as you mention in comparison to the left arm but in comparison to the plane it is flat, I think there is a reason that the angle between dianes left forearm and club shaft angle in ch. 6 demonstrating a fully cocked position was only around 70 degrees.

Diane?
 

Not to get off topic, but, who is Diane????

Is it the member of the B52's who doubles as the TGM book model?

As an aside, I hope that the next edition of the book comes out with clearer pictures....