The literal feel of loading PA's incremently
 

I was on golfwrx the other day and had a epiphany of sorts. I came across the Martinez "new concept for a golf swing" thread regarding bow to crossbow/etc.

Martinez explains that at takeaway he turns the upper arms CCW. To me this causes a limit for the BS and a tightness in the lead pectoral/shoulder muscles when the hands reach hip high.

Is this what loading PA4 initially feels like? What are the first PA you load?

The move possibly presets a limit to the load of PA3 which would inevitably keep PA2 loading on plane. Any input appreciated a this is my first post here on LB.

Welcome!

Not the answer you are looking for, but I feel the bulk of my loading being handled by #1. Taking it back by consciously using #4 does nothing but get me under plane.

One size does NOT fit all, just my preference. I love the study of Right Forearm Takeaway and The Magic of the Right Forearm...

Hopefully someone using your type of loading procedure will chime in with some help. We have some of everything here. No right, wrong, or best, but we all tend to have some strong preferences... :-)

Kevin

Thanks Kev. Ive read your stuff before and appreciate the input.


Whats your take on the upper arms action in takeaway. Does the upper lead arm stay stationary(resist turning) when you RFT? Or do you think it should be relaxed?

I guess Im trying to get someone to explain the feel of maximizing PP at the top. If I fully load PA 4,3,2 correctly then whats the feel?

I dont think Im loading PA3 completely and my upper lead arm rotates with the rest on my takeaway move. Thats my whole basis for posting the thread.

I tend to not emphasize pp#4 (pressure between right arm and armpit / chest) when I load A#4. Instead I emphasize a geometrical + physical alignment that creates tension that runs down the left side of my back. Tension created to pull on the lever. That pulling combined with CF is what makes Accumulator come alive for me. If I really try to create a lot of pp#4 pressure it tends to ruin my rhythm, but each to his own I guess.

I don't know Martinez method very well but what you describe sounds pretty much like a personal fit.

Great answer above by BerndtR. My advice will go back to basics. Feel from proper mechanics rather than mechanics from feel. Any "feels" you have while loading the club must comply with your selected plane. Please study 1-L-5 and 6 and then 7 through 11. Lots of ways to properly load the pressure points and accumulators, find YOUR way, but make sure your "feels" comply with the plane.

My apologies if too basic, but that's where I'm at right now, and teaching the Imperatives, essentials, along with 1-L-5 and 6 has been huge in watching my students improve. :-)

Beyond that, there are MANY great folks here who can and will help.

Have some fun experimenting!

Kevin

Are you trying to do Ayer's stuff? He's basically doing "lagging clubhead takeaway". It would be a "pure" swinging procedure according to Machine spanglish. Probably shoulder turn throw. Accordingly the left arm is going to be a "piece of rope." So pretty much inert left arm pivot driven procedure.

wow...eye opening statement there. So loading/pressure/feel becomes a product of achieving alignments? I like it. Seems Ive been trying to do it the other way around.

Not trying to model my swing after his. I just thought it was interesting what he had to say about the upper arms at takeaway.

My swing has 2 different forms now; one of which looks better in alignment and my right wrist doesnt cock at all. I do a decent rotated shoulder turn and I feel balanced throughout.

The other (basically my swing for the past year and a half) My hands get too deep with a flatter shoulder turn and the right wrist cocks at the top and club goes to parallel. The rest is pretty ugly; big hip slide/upper center falls away through impact and finish is usually unbalanced

Im under the impression that its some sort of arm tension/connection that Im intermittently doing wrong at takeaway.

hard to say without seeing the motion . . . . stick it up . . . Ayers is certainly an outside the box thinker and a really nice dude too.

Cocking the RIGHT wrist is a no no 'round here . . . I like the axis wall stuff Ayers talks about good stuff. His deal is pretty much dynamics . . . you get precision alignments here . . .two not necessarily mutally exclusive in my mind.

okay...i figured I would wait for a request lol. First the bad one. I laugh so hard everytime I watch this. Watch the ball in slow mo at the end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1klkEQQDqhQ

And the good one(better i guess)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiHRhwNHajU&NR=1

both from the same day; not sure why I decided to play a round after that bad of a range session but ball flight was penetrating and pull fade with short irons/slight push draw with longer clubs. The bad swing crept up on me a few times during the round. Something isnt right with takeaway though. My legs were really fatigued from current workout so I didnt exactly get the rear hip depth and leg extension I needed.

My thoughts were that a steady hip turn off the ball carries me to P2, fan right forearm; then turn hips from P4(with core muscles and not jerky) and try to feel like right elbow leads handle for as long as possible.

Im no TGM expert so thats why Im here asking questions. I did hit 2 300 yard pull fades with my driver though. Never done that before. One of them was into the wind.

1-L-5
1-L-6
2-F

Just my opinion, but that's where I would start.

Cheers

I understand I have some homework to do...Im deployed at the moment and wont be handling a yellow book for another 3 weeks as I dont have one with me. I was reading up on scraps I found online regarding 1-L-5/6. It wasnt at the forefront of my mind because I was the other way around feel->mechanics instead of the inverse as you mentioned.

Actually just ordered my book as a result of the RFT thread on wrx we were in about a week ago.

I will repost after I do the reading. thanks for the help gentlemen

Dude there is some REALLY REALLY nice stuff going on in your golf swing. I like the hand path lots and your top lines are nice. BUT . . . you got MAJOR MAJOR clubface issues. YOU ARE SHUUUUUUUT big time. I could be wrong about this but I gotta think that you have to back your spine and head up to get some loft. Your body is has to work underneath the face so you can get some loft.

Your hand path is nice but the clubface is shut and shaft is steepish . . . I think if you fix your face, you can GO FOWARD rather than backup to get loft.

Look at Hogan's right leg . . . . look how the heel is staying down and the right knee isn't shooting out at the ball. Go to the top and shoot your right knee at the ball . . . note what your spine does . . . I think if you got your face aligned more with your left arm you could really focus on moving your weight forward using the ground. That foward move from the ground up would get the shaft "laying down" some . . . your release motion itself I like . . . I wouldn't worry about all that laggy buggy whip stuff . . . that's just window dressing. You have some nice pieces going man. Fix that clubface and you can hit it with true loft and get the ball to start on line or push a lil' bit . . . plus you can get on it with the pivot rather than backing up. In that impact frame it looks like you are close to the hosel rocket. . . but your hands are in a pretty good spot. Clubface . .. clubface clubface . . .

you are CLOSE man REALLY CLOSE . . . I like the way your right shoulder is working . . . your hands are staying in and the club is coming out . . . the release motion is NICE . . . but if you fix that face and can start moving foward your gonna pop that club right on plane. Right now due to the face your pivot has to fight hard to get loft . . by backing up . . . fix the face and you can deliver the loft the the ball AND feel like your sternum is releasing forward and your hips are racing forward under and up so the can turn. Look at the face on of Hogan . . . his pelvis area is moving forward and his right heel is staying down winning the race rather than backing up and putting out the cigarrette . . . his pivot is stretching out his right leg . . . look at how it stretchs out his right knee AND HOW EXTENDED HIS RIGHT HIP JOINT IS . . . thats gettin' the work outta the gound . . .

did the 2nd vid work(the one that wasnt a hosel rocket)? I know my pivot kind of died after impact but just curious. Comparing it to every other swing I have on film I feel like it was the best from an alignment perspective.

I greatly appreciate the input. Fighting a losing battle trying to track down a pdf version of TGM. I feel like I broke a rule by posting on LB and not having the book next to me lol

Where are you at the moment? Stateside?

KevCarters advice was basically geared towards swinging on a flat plane. Not flat as opposed to upright but flat as opposed to curved. You are going underplane in your back swing. I agree with KevCarter. And getting on plane at the top is key to loading PA#4. For any given plane there's a slot up there that enables you to crank it pretty hard with your pivot.

Your impact looks very't solid, deliberate, heavy. That's a keeper.

Carribean. It takes 2weeksto get any mail. Got a fresh copy at the house but if I ordered another(which Im tempted to do)then it may get here after I leave.

EDIT-sounds cheesy but I cant go into detail. Im excited to get some golf time at the course and spend 60% of the time Im in my hotel infront of a webcam with a club in hand

Dude . . . get the book if you want . . . but I'd say fix the clubface . . . you got it pointing at the sky at the top of your backswing. You are bowing your left wrist . . . not as bad as Dustin Johnson . . . but he is an athletic freak. It can be done . . . but not sure it's recommended for mere mortals.





he works it open . . . you don't seem to work it open . . . and can you dunk a basketball flat footed in no shoes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3NbAAaEURI
The book is great but I'm not sure you need to get too bogged down on book . . . you are close . . . fix your face

Sirs...you are correct. My grip is Strong double action(LH turned). Im using a sort of hybrid address with hands slightly forward of mid body but flat right and bent left w/ both arms straight so not really "adjusted address" but not really "impact fix".

I was still under the impression that the lead wrist would be VISUALLY flat at the top even though its bent at address. bent->flat=closing club face

I wouldnt have figured it out without flashlight drill for the takeaway (1-L5,6 that Kev mentioned). Cant find anything on 2F though "clubshaft control"? But yeah club runs up the forearm and isnt under plane going back.

in the down stroke Im pulling with pp2 which flattens the lead wrist visually. I get to the ball with square face and more shaft lean than I had at address.

Still wont see a driving range for 2 weeks

Im with Bucket here. Little bit of face issue maybe keeps you closed up; stop and steer to the right. Good motion overall. Hold the swords guys, but the LAST thing I want this man to do as a student (competitive, tough and athletic) is grind in the yellow book. If TGM is your thing, just find a TGM instructor and remain a "player".
Those Hogan photos are a good place to start also, kind of opposites: different face, lowpoint movement and tracing.......................

No argument from me JT. :salut: I get a little too excited about my own studies. I wouldn't teach that way on the range, but switch modes when I enter the forum. Thanks for the great advice!

Kevin

No no no, Kev wasn't referring to your post. Just in general, this is for the mentally ill !!! :laughing9

I already have the good instructor part. Going for a lesson in 2 weeks when I get back. My time with golf was more finding feels that produce a good result. TGM in regards to alignments and where power in the golf swing comes from is really helping me figure out what I had wrong.

My biggest misconception was with the left wrist cock. If I flatten the left wrist from P1-P4 then I shut the face(because LH is turned on the shaft). Ive read in so many places before that you need a flat left wrist at the top and at Impact. It's been hard work to get a decent shot like that and I didnt realize I was doing it incorrectly until I stopped flipping and started hitting big huge draws and hooks instead of pull fades and pushes.

The left wrist is ideally Flat Level and Vertical but Flat and Vertical are relative terms. Relative to grip type. If you during your backswing Arch your left wrist to achieve a literally flat left wrist you have broken your Left Arm Flying Wedge Alugnment.

The left hand hangs naturally in what we would call a slightly turned manner although there is no turn involved. If there is a nutral this is it. The elbow is turned too a's it's aligned to your mouth naturally. Not perpendicular to a golfers square plane line.

If you arch your left wrist to achieve a literally flat left hand at top you are not Flat in tgm terms.

The face being square to the left arm idea at Top is also Relative. Relative to Grip Rotation. For a ball played back of Low Point by a golfer who Rotates his grip, the face will appear more closed so to speak at top or in follow through. As it should.

Literaly flat or parrallel to the left arm at top is common and logical but only correct under specific conditions. A week left hand grip rolled literally level at fix and no grip rotAtion a's in a ball played at low point.

See the photo in the book that accompanies flat level and vertical ........ It's grometrically flat not literally flat.

It's a Mellon scratcher but hopefully a useful one. To get it wrong is to compromise a lot of your alignments take Hinge Action for instance.

great post! Wish I had read that long ago sir.

Thanks Man, but point still taken! :)

Hope all is great JT! :salut:

Kevin