Return of the Snap Release?
 

Been hitting the range hard again...does this look like a Snap Release? Certainly feels like it...would appreciate expert tips...

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vXruGvwync&NR=1

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?...eature=related

Nice move, compda.

Certainy a late release and still plenty of lag pressure through the ball. What have you been working on?

I would say you're close to a snap release but perhaps not quite there. A late random sweep perhaps. The club starts to release before the hands are past the line of sight to the ball. If I remember correct, Yoda has stated that the right elbow should be past the line of sight to the ball before the snap release happens....

This isn't an expert "tip", just an observation.

Stop the belly view at .07 secs with just a little space showing between the hands and right leg. The shaft is well up and in - VERY snappy. One benchmark is when the hands are at that point, the shaft should be no lower than horizontal, and you beat that easily. It's especially impressive because your right elbow is not in extreme pitch position, which makes it harder to get the shaft that much "up" at that point in the DS.

Thanks guys for chiming in....I will try this week to program an extreme pitch position for the right elbow.

I have been working on a flatter backswing and then getting the shaft back on the elbow plane during the downswing.

I have been told that the thing that most enables me to get to this late release is my right elbow abduction at startdown.

Of course you could take a look at Dustin J. He has an incredible late snap. One significant thing that he does different than you is that he drives his shoulder and hips further through before Accumulator #4 starts to move.

Nevertheless, your move is quite impressive even in slomo :salut:

hey Comdpa

You have plenty of Rope Handle and Delayed Release to my eye. Why, if you dont mind me asking, do you want more?

Ah heck we all want more something in our swings, I guess, but you seem very blessed in terms of Rope Handle, Longitudinal. Wish I could that, Im more like Steve Stricker myself.

My non expert eye is looking at that freeze frame from the DTL view......looks like your pushing your butt in and your left shoulder is going back there, maybe. Just a titch. If so , Id say forget snap release and work on your pivot or weight distribution. Zone 1 is job 1.

O.B, you hit the nail on the head. I feel like I need to keep my tush line more, ideally would like to see my hands go right field more after impact.

As to more rope handle...I still think that I can use more Zone 1 in maintaining more lag to release point.

Thanks for chiming in...all very helpful!

You poor thing:laughing9

Seriously, Strickers swing may not be ideal to maximize power, but his swing looks to me to be molded for precision with his moderate accumulator #2 lag and very solid impact alignments. So perhaps he looses a little distance off the tee and gains precision everywhere else. How about doing the Rory thing off the tee and the Stricker thing from fairway to green?

comdpa,

For what it's worth, I find it much easier to get an extreme pitch elbow with a more upright BS. You can drive it directly down from the top with the pivot and get it in front of the right hip as near the belly button as possible(be careful not to hurt yourself). Whatever you do though, please post more video to show the results, and let us know about distance/trajectory changes. Very interesting topic.

MJ,

Its interesting that you make this point - Sergio does this very well. Let's just say that I am trying to make BS as upright as
the angle of my right forearm at address while still making a full turn with no arm lift.

My analysis of PGA Tour players is that from start-up to backstroke, the clubshaft NEVER goes below the right forearm. The only one player I know who does this and made a good living at golf is Raymond Floyd.

One of my aims this week and the next is to make sure that from a down the line perspective, my shaft post-impact,"exits" at my right shoulder or a hair above. I still think I am wiping my shots a little and this should prevent the shaft from moving left too soon past impact.

Thank you for the interest and I will keep all updated.

What made you decide the flatter out of orbit swing was not working out? What you have going now looks mucho better. Was the flat age an experiment to look outside the dots? Or did you find the "old stuff" hard to shake?

In so many words, I am an adopter of technology...if the means for faster air travel is there, I will use it.

Ditto for golf - though I admit I was swayed by one-sided and idealistic ideals...am now back to my ball striking best and that just about says it all.

I agree that the club should not go below the right forearm. Even though Floyd started the shaft too low as you said, he corrected this by shifting to a more vertical plane at the top by lifting his right shoulder after the flat initial move. I also like where you're going with the more vertical post-impact shaft. The current fad is swinging the hands way too far left. I look forward to the post-mod videos.

Why would you want to have your elbow at your navel? Would it be from a functional standpoint is it easier to deliver the sweetspot to the ball from there? Is it easier to be on plane with the right elbow at your navel? What is wrong with Stricker's amount of #2 angle? What are the advantages of having more range of motion in #2? Does it automatically result in more power and/or more consistency? Are snap releases some how inherently easier with more #2 and float loading?

The more and longer your right elbow is bent, the more and longer your left wrist is cocked. What you really want to do is get the bent right elbow past where your naval was at address, before the club is released. The more you laterally shift on the DS, the easier this is to do.

Here's the benchmark

http://home.comcast.net/~peter.dilla...side_clip.html

I assume this is OK, if not please delete the link - thanks.

I read on another golf website that guys who swung the hands "left" post impact could not putt. The people that the website cited included Sam Snead, Sergio Garcia and of course, the inimitable Ben Hogan.

Ball striking alone does not make good golf - it is merely one part of the puzzle.

Thanks for the link MJ.
And great clarification, that is what I have always understood, but through the years, I realise that many people have confused the "method" of the Maximum Trigger Delay as being to jam the right elbow in front of the navel on the downstroke - which almost always results in shanks.

I read that one too. Not sure if I buy the arguments though. It seemed as the writer figured that swinging left was all about steering - and that this steering over time induced the yips. But you don't need to steer to "swing left".

What you need to do is time impact so that there's still some release left. Relative to the pivot, the club head will then be moving away from the body so it's basically a push stroke. And the only way to keep the club head going down the line is to stay ahead with the pivot so the handle is going back in.

Hogan's hand path was outside - in relative to the target line while the club head path was more or less neutral.

I don't think he was of the mindset that swinging left was steering. Rather in a golf swing where the rotating pivot produces centrifugal force, swinging left actually creates centripetal force and to do so actually requires immense forearm strength. Over time, all that gripping actually creates scar tissue in the forearms which hamper feel in putting.

Great discussion guys really enjoying this ......reminds me of the old days.

So to ruin it all and go like totally tangential ....

1. If you were doing one armed push ups would you be more powerful more explosive from a slightly bent elbow or a max bend elbow?

2. Does this have any relevance to a swinger who has Extensor Action and right elbow Magic? Or is it more a Hitter thing?

3. I see Hogan getting his Right Elbow on his watch pocket not his navel.

4. If you did get your elbow on your navel wouldn't that imply a navel plane?

5. Didn't Homer say somehing about the planes below the TSP being less condusive to Snap RElease? Can't remember where this is to b found maybe in the "notes"? Anybody Understand his reasoning here?

6. If you need to slow down to achieve Snap does it add anything behond a steeper Angle of Attach?

Comdpa

Have you tried adjusting your aiming point to a spot on the Arc of Approach on the target side of the ball? Seems to me I read that Snap was possible to learn through an Aiming point adjustment. Me, I have it on the other side of The ball for a driver anyways a's I need to give my self more time so to speak to square up the face with that long a lever......

Not that my hand speed is any great achievement or anything.

at this point we still have no support for WHY one would employ:

1. A bent right elbow to the navel
2. "more" trigger delay
3. "more" #2 angle later
4. that there is some relation to this and snap release

would like to here the opinion of mechanical advantage and how these work together. not saying they don't but the machine is about picking your components and adjusting their rates of release and method of release . . . how does all this work and what is the support for doing it/not doing it?

Are we just trying to achieve a "look" or does it produce a better result?

Hi Bucket,

Great question!

I enjoy the way you study EVERYTHING and continue to compare the theories with the foundation of the machine. Great way to learn, and I appreciate the way you allow us to learn from your study. :salut:

Too many trying to achieve a "look." It's all about learning to get it around in the lowest # possible. For me, it all comes back to working basic motion and combining those alignments with Zone 1 via the MacDonald drills.

I don't teach tour players, lucky for them :) so I can focus on KISS.

Kevin

Yes - but his watch pocket is at or even farther forward of where his naval WAS at address.

You shouldn't try to slow down - NO PIVOT STALL. Watch Hogan, he rotates as hard as he can all the way to his anatomical limits. Slowing down = quitting!

This all contributes to making the clubhead go a long way in a short time, i.e., more clubhead speed. The great equalizer for those who aren't big, strong rotating machines.

Know what ya mean. I been chasing more longitudinal for years and just love Hogans swing even though I'm more Strickerish. Some buddies of mine have tons of rope handle, too much to thier minds ( it can cause it's own set of problems , distance control with short irons etc). Both these guys are crazy long and bit it pure pure pure. Both would willing trade me some of their longitudinal for " the nice width" they like in my Startdown. Still trying to figure out how to do this. I'd make the trade in a heart beat.

My point is that we all admire that super late look but only a few can really achieve it maybe. I dunno.but regardless you have options in terms of Release and it's probably best to pursue one that you are capable of achieving.

That said there is a mEchanical advantage .... That of the smaller pulley wheel, endless belt. Practically for the golfer the Hands do speed up ( otherwise there wouldn't be any lag pressure for instance). And slow down upon lever ExtEnsion. I guess we are talking swinging in his discussion and so ruling out q muscular Effort to add hand speed during release.

I'm typing on my phone can somebody please post
The paragra

Dang fingers sorry I'm in Hawaii (came here to work on my Hula Hula) without a laptop.

Can somebody please put up the paragraph from 2-p where Homer describes the Overtaking Rate. And also the last paragraPh from 6-n-0.

Thanks in advance
Ob

Can't say that I have. I just use the ball as an aiming point.

1. We clarified that it's not a bent right elbow to the navel, please read earlier posts.
2,3 and 4. For me personally, it helps me hit push draws and increases total driving distance.

Yes, this is my great equalizer seeing I am not a big rotating machine!

I personally don't think the super late look is difficult to achieve if you know the required motion that goes into it.

I would use strong left hand grip which would lead to a strong double action. On the downswing, if the shaft were a huge comb, then you pull comb the back of your hair of which length ends in the middle of your back. Do that and take a face on video, if you are surprised with the ensuing look, share it. This is one of the most effective ways I know of to increase the mechanical advantage.

Thanks comdpa but Im not sure I follow. Im intrigued though so please expand.

What is the benefit of the strong left hand grip? Are you talking a 10-2-D type where Right Hand bend is inline with Left Wrist cocking? Is the hair combing a plane shift in Startdown or prior maybe?

Anybody notice the difference in the Release Points in photos 10-24-D #2 (Non Auto Snap Release) and 10-24-E #2 (Auto Snap Release).

The latter appears to be later but both are "Snap". Is there a range of Snap Release positions?

The strong left hand grip will help you retain more left wrist cock - try for yourself, with a "normal" grip and this one.

The combing the hair move is basically a trigger to start down if you will. Yes, it will result in shift to a lower plane. It will also aid in preventing the right shoulder from rotating off plane at the startdown.

Good technique and imagery. There are other ways too.

I'm not so sure that your position on "mechanical advantage" isn't circular argument . . . . but anyways . . .

what specifically are the mechanical advantages of a "smaller pulley wheel"?

What defines the pulley wheel? The assumptions are that a small wheel is some how better . . . are there any disadvantages?

Is there a distinction and/or relationship to handpath and the pulley wheel? Or is it all about "delaying the release" of #1/#2?

The little duck goes faster.

The path of the butt end of the club during release. Only if it embarrasses you to outdrive your playing partners.

Handpath obviously influences how/when the end of the handle curves. #2 release determines how tight the curve is.

See " Overtaking Rate" too from Wristcock 2-P. As for the Endless Belt I'd say it's an analogy and all analogies are well just analogies. The hand speed is not really constant the hand path is not truly straight line for very long anyways, but the overtaking rate is real and straighter hand paths do have less associated cf throwout. The physics of circular motion is real for water skiing, car tires, gears, pulleys.. etc

If you have snap and high hand speed you are doubly blessed. Can snap be learned? Homer thought so but he also alluded to each of us having an ideal hand speed. For those who can't cant pull it all off , they can add muscular drive out , thrusting to match the club head speed. Higher hand speed same clubhead speed bigger pulley wheel as pushing on the aft of the handle tends towards an earlier Release as the left hand swivels off the plane with the drive out action.

I think maybe. Me if I go 4b hitting I don't think too much about having a lot of #2 angle late it's more about saving some right arm for the ball and it's that last bit of right elbow bend that's most powerful like a boxers jab vs a huge Right elbow bend late thing.

I once asked Yoda if I should give up on getting to snap when swinging and he replied that I should be able to do both ( snap and random sweep). Still a work in progress. Im Trying to get more longitudinal at present when I'm practicing anywAys. When playing I go with my usual full Stricker.

Bucket you love Hogan why you arguing the other side on this one? Are you fighting with he small pulley wheel? I've seen some Sergio types and what they can struggle with .... But it can be mastered by dialing the longitudinal down when its not needed or wanted. Slowing the ground up, pulling, drag loading down some. The two guys I know who are crazy late both struggle with distance control on short irons. They'd rather hit it hard than take something off it for some reason. One guy does long drive ....made it to Vegas as an amateur once and swears he is all left arm, no right arm at all. Auto or non auto snap? He doesn't know. On film his hands flip over quickly which is perhaps an indication of the Homers non auto whiplashing action maybe??????

Homer and his components are fascinating but the definitions the interplay between components is frustratingly complex....... As it should be I suppose.

Me I like Strickers swing a lot, but the Hogan slow mo footage from Mexico is so so intoxicating.

What are the other ways?

Where do you think the pulley wheel is? Not being a smartass I'm being serious. If you actually had to demonstrate it to someone where would locate the wheel with a snappy type deal?

How many mortals can do Hogan/Sergio and be any good at it? The stuff these cats are talking about . . . is it what Hogan did?

Do you think he had a big wheel or a small wheel?