Advice on Horizontal Hinging
 

Guys, any tips or what "you think of" when doing this hinge. Do you think of turning your shoulder or back of hand after impact? When I thought of pointing my elbow down i had success with this. Is that a bad thought ? I have watched the alignment golf video a hundred times. When I do it slow I can produce it but when going into acquired motion I feel like im not executing it correctly.

thank-you.

Mac.

I think I answered my own question. The feel must be in the shoulder because this is obviously the hinge point. Any roll of the forearm would be a swivel?

mac.

You're right about the hinge pin.

Horizontal hinge typically happens with a much faster overtaking rate club vs hands. So I tend to empasize slow / quiet / passive hands. When I want something more towards vertical I drive my hands forward towards impact and past.

MacGolf,

Great question. I get a little confused on this issue as well. I think you have it right. I know YODA has taught us that finish swivel is left forearm. Hopefully the guys will help us get this right on hinging... again. :) :salut:

Kevin

Mac,
Remember that you're not executing "impact" as a swivel or finish swivel. The feel of a HH to me is always more of a snap release with the longest clubhead travel, where I would contest that you actually feel MORE active hands. All of that being said, your best chance of getting it right (imo) is to monitor the clubface through follow through waggles. Do a few waggles to two arms straight and check that the toe of the club is pointing down the target line. I actually have a club with a tee glued to the end that serves as a pointer. (This drill while left arm and club remain in rhythm is fantastic for steerers)
Anyway, the point is to train your hands what their role is........this will give you a feel that you can duplicate. While HH is a hinge pin mounted perpendicular to the ground and your left arm and club is serving as the blade.................please don't think about that when its time to hit a ball. Your hands have a job to do and because you're on an angled plane, to get that toe down the line its gonna feel like a pretty substantial roll. Show yourself a few times where your hands need to go, then let em go. I remember Ted Fort talking about this one day telling me "you ain't gonna believe how reckless its gotta feel"

Right on my brotha from another motha!!! :salut:

Go make the tips of your fingers tingle in some no club/no joined hands practice swings...

Hall of fame post!

Thanks Man. :salut:

Are you prepared to roll on a line? :yoda:

Kevin

A "feel" of roll when using HH would still just be a characteristic of its hinge motion. To remain in rhythm, the clubface, left wrist, left forearm would all have to obviously "swivel" or rotate to the golfers perspective some to get to that "toe down the line at two arms straight" follow through. From there, "finish swivel" is the bridge to get you to the finish.

Haha...thanks Kev. Make sure you cut the guy off a little bit and raise your voice.

Y: "what's the next one say"

: "delivery line rrrrrrrrrrrr"

"Y": AREYOUPREPAREDTO......ROLL!...ON... THAT.... LINE!!!!!!!! :laughing1 :laughing1 :laughing1

That's what makes him great! No one knows it better and no ones more passionate about it!......... (and since he's not a big football fan, he has been given a very rare exemption off of my "I am forced to not like you because you're a tech fan" list which holds no exceptions:laughing9 )

....our friendship is meant to be

Thank you J,
My problem was or is... sometimes my right hand gets under my left right after impact.(not flipping it but it gets under..thats another question) When studying the hinge actions I have no problem duplicating angled or vertical but struggle with horizontal. So I am trying to "feel" the proper feel. I will def try what you said. I feel like this should be so simple but its not.. for me at least.

Thanks again.
mac

IMO, What Mr. Tillery talked about is EXACTLY what you need for that problem. I have the same issue and it causes me to flip. I will be working on feeling reckless just as YodasLuke taught J.

Hopefully you also caught the reference to YODA's video ARE YOU PREPARED TO ROLL ON THAT LINE" and also another on finish swivel. Great stuff that will help you tremendously. If the left forarm doesn't roll with a flat left wrist, the club will overtake the hands in the manner we struggle with.

Kevin

Preparation for roll must take place at the top of the swing. If your right hand feels under, you are starting to turn the clubface to the ball too late. I have been working a lot on the finish swivel, here is what I am working on. 1. keep right forearm on plane at address, no low hands, which contributes to angled hinging for me. 2. catch rain with the left palm after both arms straight, while retaining axis tilt. 3. keep left thumb away from head at finish. In addition to Lynn's finish swivel video, watch Tomassello on hinging, and part three of the Dietrick letters.

Great stuff Dodger!

I'm not familiar with the Dietrick letters. Any chance you can shoot me those?

Thanks,
Kevin

The translation from mechanics to feel requires you to learn the mechanical alignment (look, look, look) and then observe the associated feel . You learn/practice mechanics but play by feel. It requires checking on a daily basis to ensure proper compliance. Every darn day is different.

Dont have my book with me, how'd that sound?

"Open the door and letter in"
 

Like someone who understands Homer Kelley!

Kevin

Ahhhh, I know that video, I have it. I forgot it was done for Deitrich.

Thanks Drew! :salut:

Kevin

Golly that tape brings back memories of my time in that big room of tommy's at deer track golf & cc in myrtle beach. I like the video - very clear. In the last part where he holds the hips back and starts the arms down out toward first base is where I gave up on Tommy. He worked with me on that and it just didn't compute. It felt awkward. With axis tilt and that arm motion I could never find the plane line. Where was the tracing. I could never get back on course. He helped me alot but I never went back after that. Frankly it just felt weird to me. I was sitting down, squaring, from the TSP, pulling and that goofed that all up

Thanks for linking that video! That's great stuff. I've never heard anyone advocate leaving the right hip back like that. I just went out and hit a bucket of balls and it worked wonderfully. I think it may be a major key for my swing. On video my hip doesnt really stay completely back, but it stays back enough to help me get my right elbow more pitchy and more in front of my right hip. Awesome. :salut:

Sorry Kev, out of the office this afternoon and just saw your email now. It is a nice video for swingers and learning how to hit past the left hip, which is horizontal hinging. Henry Cotton, Jones, Snead and other old timers used to advocate swinging the clubhead past the left hip. The right hip cannot get in the way, but a proper swivel takes care of the hips. Hand controlled pivot, that is what Tommasello seems to me to be talking about. The left hip continues to turn, because the finish swivel takes it there. When you taught me the finish swivel, no body thought at all. My hands did what they were supposed to, my body listened to the hands. If the swivel is done properly, you look like Tom Watson at the finish.

David, with all due respect to Mr Tomasello , which is considerable, his geometry would not appear to be consistent with 1-L, 2-C or 7-2. You're quite right , you cant Trace a Straight Line Base Line when you've bent the plane to the right.


Horizontal HInging is not a swinging towards first base and a "rolling it over" to hit a shot between 1st and 2nd that draws left. It could work out that way but where's the underlying geometry? Where's the Associated Horizontal Basic Plane of the Hinge Action , where's the club face vs the club path, Divergence, where's his face at address, where's his plane line?

When he demonstrates the various Hinge Actions he sure appears to swing out to the right for Horizontal. As if Horizontal has its own associated Closed Plane Line. Ive heard an assertion from some that TGM'rs swing towards 1st base but I didnt know it really existed as theory from some A.I.'s

I dont really want to get into all this out of respect for Mr Tomasello but there's people out there who might think this is out of the book. Which it isnt.

The only time a TGM 'r really swings to the right is when he's pointed his plane line in that direction, Closed. Thrust on the other hand continues down and out towards the straight , square plane line until the Right Arm is Straight at Follow Through. The clubheads Arc of Approach is down and out towards the plane line until low point.

Delaware Golf is gonna hate me for this. Sorry man , T.T. had a lot of attributes , he did, his contribution was immense. Maybe he was simplifying or something ......

Isn't golf amazing. What computes for some folks doesn't for others. That is why we discuss on this forum. There is a lot left to the interpretation of the english language and the difference in feels. I know Tom worked with me on this out to first base and I just didn't get it. If you think about it the hands from the top are inside and do come down the plane towards first base moving in a circle/ellipse. So you can move in a circle and trace a straight plane line. Some thought has to keep the action on plane. Once tracing had been ingrained in me by ben doyle I couldn't fit in swinging towards right field. The other area where I had conflict is putting together bending of the right arm and cocking of the left wrist. Ben had taught holding on taking the right elbow deep, then he talked about straighting the right arm, "shooting" with hip action. You can hold on from the top, straighten the right arm and release later in the down swing after "centering" and sitting down. In one procedure you are delaying hip action and moving the arms, swinging past the left hip(which is meaningless to me) and in the other delay the straightening of the arm until later in the down swing and then release. TGM to me means the arm bends and the wrists cock, ie full 90 degree bend equals fully cocked , not fully bent not fully cocked. No cocking of the right wrist. Of course many successful golfers violate these rules. But I still feel Homer's "suggest" off the best chance of success for amateur's.

What I get from the Tomasello videos is an attempt to simplify TGM. Swinging down and out without regard to the target has a feel of swinging to first base. When you watch the swings Tommy makes it does not look like a swing that goes too far to the right. I do know watching his teaching has really helped me stop steering. It is a credit to this site that an aspiring TGM'r can watch Yoda, Tomasello and Doyle. Differences in teaching, but obviously all are well grounded in Homer. You can learn an awful lot from the videos in the gallery. Every time I watch them and then pick up the book, I get a lot of aha moments.

True dodger , true. Swinging to first base could help a guy who tends to cut across it to get his delivery line aligned to a square plane line. Opposites or whatever. Thats the way they used to teach golf when I was a kid. Got a slice? Here's a hook swing, kid.

But and this is a big but to my mind....without knowing the true underlying geometry you will be forever going back and forth between too much and too little of whatever your compensating move is. Why not just know the correct geometry and in the face of the common cut across path, keep THRUSTING OUT until the clubhead blur is consistent with a straight line plane line?

To my mind this is one of Homer's best messages to the hacker on the tee. But I fear sometimes the message gets lost in.... the details or whatever.

And for the record Ive goofed with T.T.'s forget the pivot just throw the arms thing ...........I'd never say its all wrong. In fact , Ive got some video of guys chopping down trees with axes, pro loggers and those guys have pivots Id kill for. With probably zero thought to having one, those guys are just throwing their arms and axe at the tree. But with Moe Norman like Pivots. I dunno.

K back to Horizontal Hinging........

-you need it for total compression.
-it feels like a roll. But you need to ask yourself how much of a roll. Not too much or too little. There is an Alignment that'll make this clear.
-it is the opposite of the ill founded but common , "seems as if" logic that the clubhead should remain square to the hole for a straight shot. Steering , Vertical Hinging. High floater shots resulting.
-research its Associated Basic Plane ......it'll take a while but it'll make sense , total sense in the end. Closing with no Layback it has an advantage......in a totally compressed ball.

So, O.B. Left, you're saying that it's completely reasonable to say that the Clubface can be "Closing Only" while the Left Wrist is performing a "Full Roll".

I agree. The Mechanics of Horizontal Hinging.

Thanks . But to be precise....

A full roll in feel, but one which aligns/ keeps the geometrically flat left wrist Vertical to is associated Horizontal Basic Plane (the ground) through the impact interval.

"Full Roll" can be over done after all and so you need to check by looking at it, the alignment and then incorporating the associated feel for that day.... cause the feel alone will change day to day.

THanks guys for the reply s, a lot of good stuff here. I understand all of the above. I feel that when you think of rolling, everything becomes a timing issue. I feel that this roll should happen form the correct movements through impact. Until the brain is trained the hands wont behave... SLOW drills for me until this is nailed.

Nailing the Hinge Action "Rolls" -- Feel Versus Clubface
 

Horizontal Hinging -- Roll Feel produces Full Roll of the Clubface.

Angled Hinging -- No Roll Feel produces Half Roll of the Clubface.

Vertical Hinging -- Reverse Roll Feel produces No Roll of the Clubface.

:golfcart2:

In regard to Mr. Doyle, in my recent lessons he did mention the swinging to first base. He definately emphasised a "sit and tilt" action. When we looked at my video he saw my right shoulder way too high and looked like he had seen a rattlesnake. "We gotta fix that, it won't work, your out of right arm".

And work we did, work work work.

A few nuggets:

Use left shoulder to set right arm(over right shoulder)
first move sit and tilt, draging the club off the roof, then in the gutter (feel #3 pressure point)(but end of club toward first base)
Left shoulder toward left ear
Right arm down toward belt buckle
then "fire with pivot" till wrists "kiss"
maintain flexibility in neck, ankles, wrists

A lot of other stuf too of course, but i think that captures the basic Doyle version of the first base stuff.

Good stuff Chipping, thanks for sharing.

I'll bet it is a huge thrill just to meet Mr. Doyle, just like it was for me meeting YODA. It would be the same for Mr. Sloan and several others. A shame it's too late for us newcomers to meet Mr. Tomasello, so important to keep all their work alive!

Kevin

Hinge Actions
 

Take a look at 7-10 Hinge Action! May give you the information you are looking for!:salut:

No disagreement O.B. Left, valid points all. I think there are different feels required to obtain the correct geometry. A thought of throw the arms while keeping the body still is really a feel, not a mechanic. My arms have always lagged behind in the swing, that feel works well for me, as does the thought of swinging down into the ground, not towards the target. However, for other golfers with the opposite tendency, those feels may not work at all.

Thanks Yoda.

Edz had a great Horizontal Hinging drill , maybe one of yours originally, where you start on a level to the ground plane and then incrementally drop the club down to a golf like plane. Ill try to find it for this thread. It makes the above head scratcher come clear.

Even the "full" roll of the clubface can be overdone too. Heck you can over do anything probably..... except for Lag Pressure maybe.

The war against Steering has been fought with any and all means. Im fascinated by it all actually.

Im really glad Yoda and Bagger put those T.T. and Ben Doyle tapes up. Im going to research Alex Sloan as well. What Id give to see Homer on the tee with those three guys in the first GSEM class. Man. Ive heard the mention of a video tape.....anyone seen it?

How's the LBG time machine coming along Daryl? Set it for Seattle 1981, the beanery. Just going to hang out there till Homer walks in with those guys. 900 am on a monday morning not sure of the date. Might buy some IBM stock and gold too while im there. Call my dad etc.

I think that if Homer were here, he would be participating on LBG.com 24/7. :)

Alex Sloan is a great guy. As of a few months ago he was still playing well. Very accessible guy, will talk by email. His infallible golf video is cool also. I think he is in Florence Alabama.

So true...and he is in a way of speaking .....

Becoming truly Horizontally Hinged
 

Ok, I think I've come to understand why I can't hit my driver out of my shadow, even my Weight Watcher's 5 lb. reduced shadow. :p

I never hook a drive, I push drives. I block drives (they go high down the middle and drop to the right), I do not compress the ball since the average of my drives is less than 195 yards.

I do not Finish Swivel. So what the heck am I doing. According to TT, I am Angle hinging all over the place. So the question is how to do the HH.

I've worked very hard to feel the total opposite. Stiff right wrist/Firm, Flat Left Wrist, Angle Hinge if you got 'em!

Now the movies. Lynn, TT, Ted, everyone is firing the right arm. The only question is when or where on the downswing. I guess the bottom line is to feel the toe of the club pass the heel through impact, roll on that line, but just don't jump the gun by doing impact as a Finish Swivel!

So how do I leave my hands at the Top yet fire them past my front hip? If I leave my hands at the Top and Pivot, there is no way my toe of my club is passing the heel of the club unless I "snap" my hands big time by slamming the breaks on the Pivot!

I am confused! The good news is that I am hitting short irons and hybrids well, dead on line, and they stop.

It seems like I'm going to have to start using the left side of the course! UGH! Unless, I do the VJT and catch the ball earlier on the hitting arc and spin my hands like a motha!? Is that what Hogan did, Jones? Is that "Freewheeling?" Twirl that forearm while pushing almost straight down to the right foot to Both Arms Straight?

GEEZ, my brain hurts.

ICT

:think:

It's not complicated.

Position the Ball at Lowpoint, because Ball Location determines the Angle of Approach. Widen your Stance to Shoulder Width (important). Grip the Club with your Right Hand only and create the Right Forearm Flying Wedge (Bend that Right Wrist). Turn the Right Hand Flying Wedge until the Clubshaft is On-Plane. Move that assembly into Impact Alignment without "flashing" your Right Hand (Impact in the Turned Alignment). Notice the Clubface remains stable as it closes (Toe passing heel) and very important, please notice that your right Forearm is aligned on the Angle of Approach when the Clubhead reaches Impact.

When your Right Forearm at Impact has reached the Angle of Approach, it's On-Plane and if you were to attach a dowel rod to your Right Forearm it would Point to the Plane line about 15 yards ahead of the Ball while on the TSP and about 5 yards ahead of the Ball if you used the Elbow Plane. (depends on Club Length)

This causes the Clubface to "Close Only" through Impact. If you consistently (persistently) hit Push Shots, it's because you haven't closed the Clubface, which is because your Right Forearm hasn't reached the Angle of Approach, which is because ........of the many possible reasons, it's most likely that you don't know what you should be trying to do. Once you understand what you're trying to do, it's pretty easy to do it.

Don't think that because you brought a "Turned Right Wrist and Right Arm Flying Wedge" into Impact that you haven't "Rolled". You have Rolled! You've "Rolled" around an Axis perpendicular to the Horizontal Plane. And, your Left Forearm Flying Wedge will Roll about the Hinge because of your Flat Left Wrist.

Using the above procedure will allow (Force) your Left Wrist to remain Vertical to the Horizontal Plane through the Impact Interval. And, Very Stable....without flashing your Hands.