Tour pro Hitters
 

Can someone list someone on tour who is a good example of a hitter, and same for swinger?


Thanks
Mac.

The Obvious and Not-So-Obvious
 

Obvious Hitter -- Kenny Perry

Stealth Hitter -- David Toms

--------------------------------------------------

Obvious Swinger -- Sergio Garcia

Stealth Swinger -- Steve Stricker

:cool:

stealth?
in what way?

thankyou sir.

Post Titles Matter
 

As in "not-so-obvious".

:)

ok.
A lttle of both? Mostly ... kind of ?

Air
After just looking at both swings in software, I can def see Perry right arm firing off chest on the down swing. more so than Toms.

He's the obvious one then.
I wonder what kind Brian Gay is? He is also a hitter - but how obvious?

How about K.J. Choi, a hitter?

How about a couple of blasts from the past? I'd nominate Craig Stadler and Mark McCumber. McCumber especially looked to me like he set up with an impact fix and "hit"! And HUGE divots. Played to a cut/fade.

On the recent front, how about Zach Johnson? Seems to hold off through impact?

JB Holmes?

I don't know if I read this or thought it up, but could the lack of hitters on tour be because most pros learn to play so young they can't help but be swingers because they don't have enough strength to hit. Make some sense to me.

One other hitter from the past (I believe) was Larry Nelson...who learned to play in the military if memory serves.

Id say Zach's "hold off" is strictly a necessity of grip/clubface conditions....... to me its tough to identify a lot of guys, but an obvious hitter is definitely JB........ and hold your ears

kp is not a hitter for sure and this has been milled over before
btw kp cannot hit a cut to save his life i know i grew up with him and played on tour with him

Is He Or Isn't He?
 

Okay, John. We've opened this up.

You say Kenny Perry is not a Hitter.

I say he is.

I think.

:confused1

One of us is right.

:smile:

Personally, I could care less which one of us that is.

But . . .

Let's talk and find out!

I know that your Basic Pattern is to Swing, but you can change on the very next Stroke and Hit. I remember that Par 3 several years ago where you cut a little 7-Iron in with a Hitting motion. Was it Richmond? I forget. We've talked about it. What a gorgeous, purposeful shot.

This is a great topic. And with you, me, John Tillery and the rest of the gang posted here, we've got a heavy-duty thread at work!

:salut:

Push or Pull
 

This is a great thread and I look forward to the discussion. To answer whether or not Kenny Perry is a Hitter or a Swinger, let's look at the barebones identity of the two motions. Hitting is PUSHING and Swinging is PULLING. (10-19-0) That is all there is to it, to paraphrase Homer Kelly.

It appears that Kenny Perry uses muscular thrust of the right arm, active thrust, to propel the primary lever (left arm and clubshaft) through the ball. Hitters stay just in front of Centrifugal Force and use active right forearm driveout to hit the ball. (6-B-1-0)

In slow motion videos of Perry's swing, I believe he is doing this very thing. He uses an expert pivot lag to deliver the club from top, through start down and backstroke, into release. (8-6 - 8-9) He then uses the right shoulder as a launching pad to straighten the bent arm though impact into the follow through.(8-10 - 8-11) This right arm action is the same for hitters and swingers, it just the intention. This action is ACTIVE in Hitters and PASSIVE in Swingers.

The presupposition that Perry is not a Hitter because he can not hit a fade, could be evaluated by looking at Hinge Action. Because of the active drive and paddlewheel action of the right arm through impact, Hitters will produce Angled Hinge Action ( a simulutaneous closing and laying back of the clubface)and thus a possible fade on the ball. I think Perry uses Horizontal Hinge Action (closing only of the clubface) thorough the impact interval to follow through which, with his 10-5-E setup alignments, will produce a draw. You can definitely override the tendency of Angled Hinging with Hitters, and perform Horizontal Hinging. (I-L-4) In his case, he does it time and time again.

Homer teaches the most important part of his system, Educated Hands in 6-H-0, and gives us a curriculum ten things to train and look for if we are dealing with Hitters and Swingers. In hitting, none of these include Hinge Action. I think 3-F-6 explains all of this. You can execute any Hinge Action, Swinging or Hitting,with any Stance Line/Plane Line combination to produce a variety of ball flights. (The Master's Level of Execution) To me, this says that I could do whatever I wanted to with the golf ball if I understood the correct Alignments and Hinge Action. Brilliant.

Kenny Perry has his stroke pattern (12-0)and has used that to earn millions of dollars on the PGA TOUR. He is a a magnificent player and a Hitter. Perhaps we could ask him one day, "Do you feel like you push or pull the club through the ball?" Again that is all the difference that separates Hitters and Swingers.

To paraphrase Homer again, do what you want and have fun. Aren't we so lucky that we can categorize these different types of actions and understand them. Maybe that will help us hit the ball just a little more like Kenny Perry. Maybe?

Curt Sanders

P.S. Check out Kenny Perry Iron Swing Vision on youtube to add to this evaluation.

Follow Up Correction
 

In my last post, I mentioned that Hinge Action was not in 6-H-0. It is and I apologize for the oversight. In any event, Hitters can employ Horizontal Hinge Action just like Swingers can use Angled Hinge Action. You are just going a little "against the grain" if you do this.

I think Perry is a Hitter who use Horizontal Hinging and a 10-5-E setup to produce a draw. Again sorry for misquoting and I look forward to learning more from you all.

Doesn't the book say somewhere that is is not possible to distinguish hitting from swinging by mere visual observation?

As to the inability of KP to hit a fade, arent the hinging actions that produce a draw as readily available to the hitter as the swinger?

Great discussion guys. Awesome.

I feel like this might be a good time to nail down a related issue. Namely does Horizontal tend to draw? Does Angled tend to fade? I used to think so , now Im not so sure although I profess to not knowing the answer.

If the ball leaves square to the leading edge and curves in accordance to Divergence...curvature is still a product of path assuming the face is square to the target at separation. Meaning Hinge Action while it will profoundly influences compression (2-C) does not necessarily create curvature.

I think maybe.


In regard to whether KP is a Thruster: If he does Thrust against the aft of the shaft in Release the physics of that should reveal itself in the nature of his Release and shaft bend. His release would be overlapping to some degree, some #2 and #3 at the same time. We tend to think that for structural reasons his right elbow would be aligned in such a manner as to best Thrust. Punch Elbow for thrusting against the aft. But there are other Thrusters who employ an Active Right Arm Throw from Pitch..........are they still thrusting against the Aft? You can get into a grey area with all of this. If pulling/pushing is the sole criteria for swinging/hitting the Right ARm Throw from Pitch could be pulling couldnt it?

Since we have super slo mo of KP ........do we see any tell tale signs of Thrusting? The physics of it should reveal itself but like seeing the Right Arm Throw its still very difficult to spot and perhaps inconclusive.

P.S. Kenny Perry is one of the nicest professional sportsmen Ive ever witnessed interact with the fans.

Can't the various hingings produce either fades or draws depending on the ball position?

If i had to choose, KP is hitting, cause his pivot is slow.

I think Perry hits a draw because he has a plane line well out to the right and a face slightly closed to it, I think the hinge he is using is irrelevant to the amount of curve this produces.

I do think Perry is a hitter, I see drive with the right arm and don't see CF motion. Its subjective.

For sure but if you played the ball at low point say with the Face at Separation looking down the Target Line and Plane Line and therefore no Divergence in Path and Face, Im thinking that Hinge Action would only influence compression and trajectory.

Having said that I do see the tendencies towards draw spin with Horizontal when Im hitting little pitches so I know its a head scratcher. But the laws of Impact Geometry must apply to all shots so it still comes down to path and face not Hinge Action per say. I think......currently. As if the draw tendency of Horizontal really has to do with a tendency to get the face angle misaligned at separation. Slightly closed which given enough divergence will hit a pull draw. Horizontal tending towards dynamic face angle variations/ errors in left and right , Vertical tending towards face errors in up and down, Angled being a mix of both.

I dunno but this matter really interests me Chip.

When I am pitching with angled hinging i like to try to make the ball hit and spin left, then hit and spin right, all with different ball position.

Personally, I think it is an easier shot under pressure than Horizontal hinging, which I stub on occasion and can get a bit flippy.

tomato/tomoto (although one here IS wrong in this case)
 

I agree guru....when the pressures on I would always rather produce the desired shot via clubface at address and use an angled hinge. For a low runner, for example, I would be much more comfortable playing a 9 iron back with a slightly closed face and use angled hinging. While a mid-body ball position, square face, and horizontal hinge will produce that same basic shot, that's more "roll feel" than I want to have to keep up with if anyone's watchin!!!:)
However, there are people who are exactly the other way around and that's also perfectly fine!! There's beauty in the freedom to acquire your own style.....

My thoughts exactly. I'm interested to hear more on this, but the horizontal hinge and inability to hit a cut by themselves doesn't disqualify him from being a hitter IMHO.

"don't" disqualify him

you guys make some interesting points.first let me say i feel like i hit it as hard as i can with my right hand even though i'm swinging.i can also tell you that when i hit using hitting motion it feels similiar,but the follow thru and finish are completely different.from trackman data the face means everything for ball control.it would be almost impossible to use horizontal hinge action with hitting motion.just try it on a pitch shot.
i have watched and played with kenny since we where 13 banging our own shags at the muni in paducah,ky.played 20 plus yrs on tour with him.believe it or not he has some tgm teaching.ron gring.i worked with ron also at the time.you can have right arm participation while applying swing motion.with my knowledge which is poor,there are only a few tour players that hit or have used hitting motion.yoda you think bg hits and we both disagree with you.just our own opions.btw your the second smartest person i have ever talked golf with and i've been around the greats.still haven't met the smartest.gotcha there didn't i.i have never seen anyone use hitting and swinging from shot to shot in tournament rounds.like i said seen,i cannot watch myself.golf clap ty.for you guys that can hit go do it with a driver and hit me a 5-10 draw every time.i can hit even with the drive and cannot draw the ball.thats why mr kelly suggest to use angled hinging with hitting,plain and simple it's just compatible.ther's a reason kp is horizontal hinging,because he is swinging.if only he could do something different i would have a good friend that won the masters,because he could hit a fade with his driver.
thx for your time guys have at it if you want but you will never convince me he hits

REAL Time In Real Time
 

Where else, guys?

Where else?

:salut:

The Chameleon
 

Yada. Yada. Yada.

:smile:

BG whacks at it now with the same action he's had since he was a little guy ten years old. The only difference is that now he keeps his feet on the ground! He finds it absolutely impossible to do your -- or my -- Left Wrist DRAG Loading from the Top.

He has no sense of its Snap Release, Centrifugal Force Throw Out Action into Release. Instead, he loads his Right Elbow, "Sweep" Releases and then DRIVES!

Wild.

Where was it, John, that in the 4th round, your legs just 'gave out', and you consciously went from Swinging -- Body Momentum Transfer -- to Hitting -- pure Right Arm Drive-Out -- for the rest of the round. Went low, as I recall!

C'mon. Don't say it can't be done or isn't being done.

I've seen you do it!
:salut:

Interesting how many great golfers talk about hitting it as hard as they can with the right hand. Hogan's famous "wish I had three right hands" remark and I think Jack W. said something similar.

Isn't it the case that there are different categories of hitters? Right arm thower, and those that also use the pivot to power the bent right arm into impact/release then drive the right arm? I would think thats the PGA Tour version.

Hitters power with pivot and swingers utilize the right arm. Thus the difficulty in distinguishing them by visual observation.

that was athens,ga nationwide,and as i recall you didn't believe i could go from one to the other.i had to show you the next week.i shot 65 i believe.i haven't seen anyone else be able to do what i did that round.i use hitting and swinging from shot to shot depending on the shot at hand and the situation at the time.but i can say i only use hitting to eliminate the left side of the course and use it from primary rough,i just found it helps from the face closing down.hitting is far superior than swinging in my observation.but like i stated earlier all i can produce is a fade,with never the fear of it going left.just wander why i just don't hit all the time,but golf you have to play shots to tucked pins and its hard to retrain the mind to go against what you see.thats why its so f%^& hard.especially when your baby needs a new pair of shoes.
about time for us to get things cranked up for the new year lynn.i'm rebuilding a few components for the new body i'm working on.how about my boy lefty in hawaii
62?

bg is still pulling with his left side look at his left wrist from top to impact

Watching the Champions and sure looks like Russ Cochran is a hitter.

K , Im thinking if you had a Thruster , Angled Hinger who set up with a closed plane line 10-5-E or whatever, and if he rotated his grip square to the target line ....... at Follow Through, his club face would appear to be way, way rolled to a horizontal like position . Wouldnt it?

I guess Im saying that if you just look at the face angle it can be misleading, given grip rotation. What looks like horizontal isnt sometimes.

Not talking about K.P. necessarily just talking generally. Man I like the way K.P. plays and handles himself with the fans. Seems like a great guy.

How about Charley Hoffman as a hitter?

I really love the impact shots at the beginning of this video. Raw power from what looks to me like a right arm thrust...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiKi4agmWF4

Love that video. I dont think I have the strength to hold the wrists from releasing like that. Looks Hoganish.

This is my new model on tour -- same build as me, hits the ball hard, seemed like a nice guy on the "Playing Lessons" I saw on the Golf Channel.

Swinging is associated with maximum lag, a quick transition, back swing to the end (not always) and pp#3 rotation, a sequenced release with dual horizontal hinge (usual). And pitch elbow. And of course drag loading. Accumulator#4 release is also a swinging indicator.

Hitting is associated with minimum lag, a slower transition, back swing to the top, no pp#3 rotation, a simultaneous release and (usually) angled hinging. And sometimes cross line closed plane line. And punch elbow. And drive loading. A hitter will always drive Accumulator #1, and this will often substitute for a swingers accumulator #4.

KP loads his shaft as a swinger during transition. You can see the toe up shaft flex if you freeze a film footage. But his tempo looks like a hitters rhythm to me. I'm not sure if he does pp#3 rotation; If he doesn't he is very easy with his PP#1 and #3 during transition, ref the shaft flex. His finish swivel isn't as quick as for a pure swinger. I see a pitch elbow late in the down stroke. I am convinced that he is drive loading, but dragging seems to be present as well. His hands motion relative to the pivot doesn't seem to be due to an accumulator #4 release but rather due to drive loading through Acccumulator #1.

Seems to me like KP has a majority of hitting components. But he also seems to be pulling hard from the left side, which spells swinging.

Where is the line drawn between swinging and hitting? It seems to me like all good golfers drag whether they hit or swing. And as long as the golf stroke is anywhere near circular, CF will do it's part. But KP seem to have an active thrust all the way from transition and through the ball. So he looks like a hitter to me.

If I may add: "Quick Transition" doesn't mean "Fast" or "Hurried". It means that once the Lag is loaded, Start Down before Lag is lost. Hitters can go to "Top" and almost briefly pause but Swingers should Fully "Load" and "GO" Fully Loaded. Otherwise, "Float Load". "Float Loading" is zero interruption. Either way, the Swinger gets fully Loaded and stays Fully Loaded. "Quick" Start-Down. I like to go to the Top/End and leave my Hands at the Top during Transition. As the Left Side firms, the Pressure Points firm up also. Then, Spin the Flywheel.

By all means Daryl :thumleft:

I like what you say about leaving the hands at the top. That's a pretty good swing key, IMO.

Thanks for coming on here and sharing your thoughts John. Really interesting to hear from a world class ball striker.

If you dont mind a question, can you explain the way in which you hit hard with the right hand when swinging. Do you mean an active unbending of the right wrist or something else?

Best of luck in Oh-11.

lets talk about wrist action
 

Can anyone find a video or picture of a good player who actually uses a pitch basic stroke? I certainly cant

Now to trigger delay- just because you swing does not mean maximum trigger delay- look at Tom Watson or any other player who uses full sweep.

Finally Wrist Action- hitters must use single wrist action, once you turn to the plane you are using standard wrist action which is a swing.
With single wrist action, it seems to me, that you can not take the club back more then about right forearm parallel to the base of the plane

Lets not group hitters and swingers based on a very basic understanding of what some may or may not do. The book has some 400 quadrillion possible swing combinations, all of which have some practical application- otherwise they would have been eliminated as we all know Mr. Kelly was in favor of anything to streamline the book.