How to Draw?
 

How would I use the book to learn how to hit a draw, which starts right of the target and curves back to it? Specifically, where in the book can I find where it says what the alignment of the clubface should be relative to the target line at separation?

Todd . . . you probably should ask the other crowd . . . they know how it works . . .

I know how it works, too. I'm trying to find out from TGM "experts" if the book covers this in some way. I'm not trying to be "smart". I just really have a hard time understanding what Homer meant.

Doesn't horizontal hinging give a draw in itself?

The 'Closing Door' and Straight Shots
 

C

No.

Correctly executed on a Square Plane Line, Horizontal Hinging produces dead straight shots.

:golfcart2:

I hurried to put this together so here's the first try. Draw Alignments for Hitters and Swingers.

I stand corrected. Much to learn.

But if a golfer wants a draw, he can make use of a horisontal hinging action (together with other alignments changes which will not be mentioned here of lack of knowledge) - then there is a good possibility that a golfer can get the draw he wants - or ??

Daryl,

I have a ton of stuff of yours in my swing post compilations, this will be a great addition.

You make stuff like this so easy to understand with your pictures.

You are AWESOME!!!

Thanks Man!

Kevin

Daryl, your drawings are always very helpful ! Thanks !

I have a question though: you setup the swinger with a clubface at the target and a closed plane line, that mean that you rely on the clubpath to start the ball a little right of the target (and clubface), enough for the spin to bring it back to the target ?

Yes, you've got it but keep in mind that the Clubface is Closed because the Ball was moved forward. If I need more than a 15 Yard Draw then I also need to Rotate my Grip but I continue using the Swingers Alignments.

The Alignments and Ball flight are very predictable as they are using Hitters Alignments. Small Amounts of Adjustments produce small curves. What I like most about using the Swingers Alignments is that it has "Fine Tuning" and you can dial in the exact amount of Divergence.

Thanks Kevin, I don't know if you're aware or not, but the Swingers Alignments rely on what we call "Hinge Action". Unless you "Horizontal Hinge" you should use the Hitters and Hand Manipulators Alignments.

Will try ! Thanks again for your great contributions !

My copy is a 5th Edition, and most of the text that you posted is NOT in it. Guess I need at least a 6th Edition.

The only problem I see with that geometry is that if the clubface is aligned at the target, when the clubhead's direction of travel is not, during impact, then the ball will curve too much, ending up on the other side of the target.

Correction: That text IS in my book. It must have been "hiding". I still have no idea what it means.

Wouldn't that be true with anybody's ball flight laws, old or new? Pretty basic concept, even for us literalists. :)

Kevin

Actually Kevin, according to the old laws that would be a push draw that would land at the target.

These pictures clearly show a draw that crosses the target based on the 'new' laws.

I stand corrected. I guess I am only seeing things using the new laws, not a bad thing I guess.

Thanks John,
Kevin

Yep that is a very good thing. :salut:

I thought that "Physical Laws" don't change.

Why are they called "New Ball Flight Laws"? Will there be a "New and Improved Ball Flight Laws" introduced in the near future? Is there a term "Old Ball Flight Laws"? Who named the "Original" Ball Flight Laws - "Ball Flight Laws"?

Shouldn't we try to understand all of the "Laws" that affect Ball Flight? Has someone outlined "All of the Laws" that are included in the new "Ball Flight Laws"? There can't be more than a dozen. Is anyone willing to jot them down and Post them?

If we eliminate the Plane Line from the equation, it "becomes" OK to swing "Over the Top" as long as a compensating Clubface Angle exists when the ball is struck. I suppose a teacher can tell the student "Hey, those are the new Laws, live with it". ??

One thing is becoming increasingly clear to me. "Trackman" uses a whole lot of calculations but doesn't measure target Alignment. It doesn't measure the Players set-up nor does it determine if the Player is Swinging On-Plane. I'd say that eliminating the Plane line from the equation is pretty convenient for "Trackman".

A few things.

The day any human lines the club face accurately to a target over 100 yards away will be the day.

The day any human can line up parallel to anything using their own perceptions will be the day.

The machine is aimed at a target.

What's the margin for error due to pixel size is a valid one?

I don't know the answer to that but I've asked.

You'd also be incorrect in that Trackman doesn't measure a plane line.

It measures(not calculates) it relative to the target that the machine was aimed at.

JG

It may be aligned down the target line but the day that Trackman can measure the Alignment of the Swing Plane and draw the Base Line of that Inclined Plane is the day I buy one. I'll buy two of them. No more golf instructors.

I'm saying that if it could measure and Plot the Orbit of the Center of Gravity of the Clubhead and Sweetspot Plane, then overlay that onto the Target Line, we won't need Golf Instructors anymore. We may need Psychologists to convince us to get off the Golf Course once in a while. We will also need Marriage Councilors.

If it was somehow possible to connect that gizmo to the Golfing Machine some chicks voice might say something like "Please use a little more #4 Power Accumulator". I could live with that.

Gonna be an expensive night.
 

You're joking right?

Get your wallet out and while you've got it out, I'd like one too please. :)

That's exactly what it does.

In fact the next version, will actually draw the lines on video for those with a poor imagination.

I'll call for a quote and demonstration.

Supposedly, books used by The PGA of America, in the past, stated, that the Clubhead Path was responsible for the starting direction of the ball's flight. Path was one of 5 "Ball Flight Laws". When folks talk about the so-called "new" Ball Flight Laws, there are referring to this one. Except that the science showing that the ball starts between the Path and Clubface, when the two are not square during collision, is not "new" at all. It was clearly shown in "Search For The Perfect Swing" from 1968.

Also, "Search" did show that a small misalignment from square of the Clubface to Path would create a rather prominent curve. It was clear that the Path direction would have to be aligned farther from the target than the Clubface was misaligned to the Path. But we really didn't know how much. We have a better idea now, thanks to TrackMan. As a general "Rule of Thumb", the Path should be aligned TWICE as far from the Target as the Clubface is misaligned to the Path. MORE when loft is less, like with driver.

TrackMan is wonderful and anyone wanting to learn more should read all of their newsletters on their website. It truly does "locate" the inclined plane. The Plane Line is termed Horizontal Swing Plane and is measured in degrees to the Target Line, which is user-specified. But TrackMan is not the first or only machine to measure Path and Clubface angle. In fact, TM doesn't actually "measure" Clubface, but rather, deduces it from other measured conditions. P3PRO can actually measure Clubface, with Path and Angle of Attack as well, for under a grand. I can tell you what the swing plane is with my V1 video analysis software. But I do want a TrackMan.

Thank you Max,

I think V1 is a real teachers tool.

I've never read the old laws but they don't seem to be Laws. I would like to study them anyway to find out where the glitch was.

I've studied "Search" for many years and keep a copy by my desk.

One thing we know for certain is that curving the ball is a matter of Clubface/Path and many other things, some more important than others.

But John says "The day any human lines the club face accurately to a target over 100 yards away will be the day." That's true if we're aiming at a pinpoint but it's not so bad when we're aiming at a zone. The same reality is true for someone aligning the clubface to a path he hasn't yet created. And that seems to be the procedure with the new Ball Flight Laws. My TGM Swing Pattern Alignments have never let me down.

But we have experience on our side and can adjust our Plane, Ball Position and Target Line fairly accurately.

Cam someone define "Target Line" and "Line of Flight" in "the world according to Homer"?

Target Line is an invisible straight Line from the Ball to your intended Target. Line of Flight is the initial straight-away flight of the Ball in the context and aligned to the vertical Plane.

Daryl,
That day may be here sooner than you might think.

A friend of mine,GSEM, told me a story. He was visiting the show at Orlando last january. he went to the range to see some action. He stopped at one of the biggest brands since they had a Trackman and they where offering a "try out" to anyone who wanted.

He told me that they did fix peoples ball flights within 15-20 minutes and that without any "technical" advice given. Amazed by that, he did have a chat with the boys running the TM. None of them was instructors but they did know HOW to read the numbers and WHAT was needed to change for better ball flights. It did not matter which ball flight that was requested by the student, they did "deliver".


With the knowledge that you and many others here have, I hope that you get a chance to spend a couple of hours on a machine. I would also say that having a person who actually knows how to read the numbers is an imperative!

Interesting . . . . HOLLA . . . .

That IS teaching. I've been teaching that way for 20 years. Quality instruction should always be based on "improving" the ball flight and requires a good working knowledge of the impact collision conditions that create ball flight. Heck, I can tell you what your Plane, Path, Clubface, Angle of Attack, and impact point is, within a few degrees, WITHOUT a TrackMan. For example, I can tell you that your Path is too far left and your clubface is too open to that Path. But that doesn't mean you'll have any idea how to change that. I could simply say aim more right and close the clubface more at set-up. And if that works, fine. But a great teacher will more quickly and effectively guide you to produce the desired impact collision conditions, with a plethora of proven techniques, than you could ever do on your own.

A little precise info sometimes makes a big difference
 

This summer I explained to a couple of kids how side spin is created. They were attending a summer golf schoole and had no previous experience with the game. One of the kids had good moves but he sliced the ball big time.

I spent about 60 seconds, explaining the basic impact geometry to him, and how a slice sidespin was created and how he needed to impact the ball to produce a draw. I compared with soccer.

He said that he understood, and proceded to ..... <drumroll> .... hit nice draws straight down the fairway.

I don't know who were most amazed - he or me - but that was pretty awsome.

Daryl,
In the world according to Homer:
That's not correct - hopefully someone else can verify via book quotes the right answer.
The drawing's you did are really awesome - great skills to have - although they are not correct - again - you guys are wearing me out - maybe someone else can bring up the issues that are incorrect in them.

Sorry Mike. I stand corrected. I tend to take for granted some things after years of this. That's a good reason to memorize the book.

Flight Line Versus Flight Path
 

Thanks, Mike.

Flight Line is the direct line to the Target.

Flight Path is the actual path of the Ball.

They often are not the same.

Intentionally or, more often, unintentionally!

:laughing9

'New' Ball Flight Laws and Impact
 

In 1969, when conventional wisdom screamed that "Clubhead Path" determines the initial direction of the Ball, Homer Kelley published The Golfing Machine and said "No. It is the Clubface."

Today, Mr. Kelley is lauded as being both correct and well ahead of his time. His work done, those of us seeking Golfing Perfection now need only a 'nod' to Path -- downward and outward -- but then look to the Clubface alignment at Impact. In recent weeks, I have been to the top of the TrackMan 'food chain', and they accede that Max Impact's statement is true: Namely, that the Clubface 'at Impact' is not a measured alignment. Instead, it is a derived alignment.

So, please . . .

No more of this nonsense of the Clubface alignment being measured at Impact; or, at Max Compression; or, at Separation.

At least not where TrackMan is concerned.

Why?

Because those measurements do not exist.

I do know that, years ago, the U.S. Bureau of Standards changed their definition -- and physical measurement -- of the Impact Interval from 'point of impact' to 'point of maximum compression'. Why? Because Homer Kelley challenged their published measurements. And they changed.

Today, I know that TM is 'on call' on the practice tee at every PGA TOUR event. If you've been out there a while -- :) -- you've been there a bunch, and you've seen a bunch. Most important . . .

Know that the guys in the TOUR equipment vans are in the trenches every day. They are on the tee in 'real time', watching their players launch it and making recommendations. It is not unusual for a player to do so perfectly while generating some TM numbers that collectively make no sense. Their players know this, too.

TrackMan is an important input, but in the end, getting the right club into the hands of the player -- pro and amateur alike -- is, indeed, as much art as science. As is delivering competent golf instruction.

Point is . . . in all this stuff . . .

The jury is still out.

Let's find out exactly what is being measured and how.

Then, and only then, will we be able to compare "apples with apples".

:salut:

Glad to see you on the scene here, Yoda.

If I may....It is a widely-accepted condition of the impact collision, scientifically, today, that the ball starts off in a direction which is, on average, in the neighborhood of 80% of the difference between the horizontal clubface alignment and the horizontal clubhead path, favoring the former. The actual number varies with friction. In fact, it is solely friction which causes the ball to leave the face at any angle other than 90*. That's true vertically as well as horizontally. But none of this is new, as it was well documented in "Search For The Perfect Swing", which came out in 1968, one year before Homer's first edition.

Not So Perfect After All
 

You know, I have such a hard time taking all these "new" ball flight laws seriously. Thanks to Homer Kelley, I've been teaching them for more than thirty years.

Regarding Search For the Perfect Swing. Yes, it came out in the year before the first edition of TGM, but it was far from 'perfect'. In fact, in our January 1982 Master Class, though Homer applauded its efforts to quantify impact -- "We need more studies like this." -- he also used it as an example of how very smart, well-intentioned individuals couldn't get it right, especially regarding the application of Principle to Procedure.

He also said that, because of the inherent conflicts evidenced between the various authors/researchers, there would never be a second edition.

He was right.

:salut:

TGM - Ball Spin Physics

Bold by Daryl

Below, is the explanation to what Homer said in the sentence that I highlighted in bold:

Imagine drilling an off-center hole through a ball (bottom line of compression) on the line of compression and pushing a stick through it so that it sticks out both ends. This stick doesn't pass through the center of the ball. Now drill a second hole through the ball that passes through the center (Top line) and is perfectly parallel to the first hole, then insert a stick. Those two sticks represent the Spin Plane caused by the Line of Compression of that Impact. The Spin Plane is highlighted in green.





After you insert both sticks, no matter how you rotate or orient the ball, the spin plane will always be represented by those two sticks as long as "The original contact points of the Clubface and ball remain in contact throughout the entire Impact Interval". Any Impact that doesn't maintain the impact as also the separation point, unless done intentionally, is a "Mis-Hit". Furthermore, the rate of Spin is determined by the distance between those two Parallel Lines for any given Clubhead Speed.


The "Search for the Perfect Swing" does not include this information. "The Search for the Perfect Swing" and "The Physics of Golf" only outline the conditions of "Mis-Hit" Impacts.

"D Plane" is not the Science. "D Plane" (Path and Face) is Application (How to mis-hit the Ball). TGM is the Science. :)

Kelley was small in stature and soft-spoken, but he had big plans for his system, and could be scathing to those who offered a different view. I get the sense that he felt threatened by this study. So he steered his disciples away from it. If a single man, with no formal degrees, dismisses the findings of a team of decorated professors and experts in various disciplines, and just so happens to also have a book offering a science-based solution to golf.....well, that throws up a red flag for me. I've heard several TGM disciples now, repeat Kelley's contention of errors in "Search". But the team didn't present anything that they couldn't prove, using standard procedures and the "scientific method". That's the way trained scientists do things. And "Search" never claimed to be a "complete" anything. It simply asks and answers questions on golf using standard scientific research protocol. In the end, it provides a very detailed, easy to follow, explanation of, among other things, how and why the flight, spin, and curve of the ball is created. "New" Ball Flight Laws? Hardly. Why was Kelley so critical? The team had no agenda. Most of the professors and universities donated their time and equipment for the study. How many dismissed the book because of what they heard Kelley had said about it? What a shame. Come to think of it, I've never heard any of them point out exactly WHAT is "wrong" with the research findings of scientists in "Search"? Before they do, they should probably read it first.

I'll bet Homer got cranky arguing with the leaders of the PGA who taught us all that the ball starts on the path. What did he know? :eyes:

Kevin

Homer Kelley and Search For the Perfect Swing
 

In our January 1982 Master Class, I never once heard Homer Kelley raise his voice in anger or deliver any critique that could be considered "scathing". He talked of many competing ideas, but never did I hear an attitude of "They're wrong, and I'm right." Nor did he give the impression he was "threatened" by the work of others. He asked only that they prove their ideas (as he had his).

Regarding 'Search', he never steered us "away" from it. To the contrary, he introduced us to it. He applauded much that was good and spoke of the need for more and more research along the lines presented. Much of his relatively minor criticism was directed at the sin of omission, i.e., "They had the data, and they could have gone 'this way', but they didn't."

:golfcart2: