why straight?
 

Many of my shots are weak fades/slices. But from time to time I feel that I have made a good shot. It's long and straight. But the divots go out to left as usual - maybe as much as 20-30 degrees. Why does then the shot go straight? What determines whether a shot is a slice or straight when swing path is the same? I'm not talking about pulls - that I understand - it's the straight one that puzzle me.

But does hitting it off the toe of the club feel like a good, powerful shot?

Pulls go too far to the left. Slices too far to right. There must a point where it does not go to the left or the right - and that should be straight?
I guess that some kind of combination in 2-D-1 (with an out-to-in swing path) gives a straight shot? But it's nothing that I can count on - it's just pure luck. Nice when it happens though.

I would expect that this is an issue of club face control, that you are not consistent getting the face squared up in your swing. It may be open at impact much of the time, causing the weak fade/slice. Occasionally, when you get the face squared, the ball goes straight. Maybe working on clubface control would eliminate the inconsistency.

The problem is that a straight clubface hitting the ball on this out-to-in swing path dosen't make it go straight, but results in a pull. So I guess the clubface has to be a little open, but not so much that it results in a slice? Maybe it's the D-plane that makes it go straight occationally ?(Which I don't know anything about).

In this instance, you club face needs to be square to the line of flight, not your plane line. I assume that you are speaking of iron shots, where you hit the ball before low point. If the face is square to the plane line traced on the ground, you will get a pull, probably a pull hook. In any case, you have to square the face up more than you have been in order to eliminate the fade/slice.

I am by no means an expert and am speaking from my experience. I play with an open plane line and hit the ball straight when I get my face squared to the target line (not the plane line), and hit fade/slices or pulls when I don't. Another fault of mine is to allow my head to move forward in the swing resulting in a plane line that is even more to the left than I intended and moves everything forward. That will also keep me from squaring the club face as needed, resulting in either weak fades or pulls.

I probably have the same problems as you mention here (and some more). Yes,it is mostly with irons, but I have a couple of shots with a 2 hybrid that were "wonderful" allthough the divot said otherwise.

A list of possibilities....
 

Ok, so here are the most likely outcomes:

1) As I mentioned before, An outside in swing that hits the toe. Does it feel like a powerful shot? Hard to answer. Put some dry erase on the ball and check the marks on your iron face so you can see.

2) Assuming a centered strike, a ball hit before low point, need a low point plane line that points left of the target(for righties) and a face pointing at the target. This is because when the ball is actually struck, the club head is still moving downward, outward and forward. That's the direction we need to be at the target for a straight shot.

I can assure you if your divot is 'actually' 20 or 30 degrees to the left, the only way you are going to get a straight ball at the target will be to hit the ball on the toe.

Just Not Gettin' It
 

Having a really hard time here. Please help.

In your example:

1. The ball is struck before Low Point.

2. Low Point is Down Plane from Impact Point (assumed for practical purposes to be on the Target Line, though actually slightly inside it).

3. Impact and Low Point both lie in the same Clubhead orbit and on the face of the same Inclined Plane. In fact, "Plane" lines may be drawn through each that are parallel, the Low Point Plane Line being further "down" than the Impact Plane Line (and therefore further "out"). In which case . . .

4. The Low Point Plane Line lies below the Impact Plane Line.

Here's my question:

If Impact occurs prior to Low Point, how can the Low Point Plane Line (tangent to the orbit) be "inside" -- Above Plane -- the Impact Plane Line (chord across the orbit)?

:confused1

Ok. To be more clear, I should have said impact separation would be on the target line. Fair enough.

The reality is that the impact separation line is not parallel to the low point plane line.

Here are a couple pics:





It's quite possible that I am using the phrase plane line incorrectly. If the ball is struck before low point under all the conditions you mentioned, the direction of the club into the ball is to the right of the low point plane every time.

Hopefully the pictures help and if my use of terminology is incorrect, I do apologize.

Welcome To My World
 

Thanks for your drawing. Despite your statement that "the Clubhead is still moving downward, outward and forward" through Impact -- words I have lived by for many years and which led me to believe we referring to the same geometrical model -- it is now evident that we're talking 'apples and oranges'.

As you have indicated, we have an entirely different conception of the term 'Plane Line'. Until we come to grips with that, we have no business attempting to differentiate Impact versus Low Point Plane Lines, much less Square versus Open or Closed Plane Lines.

To wit:

You have illustrated an Open-Open Plane Line (10-5-D). Not being familiar with your model and terminology, I assumed a Square Plane Line (10-5-A), i.e., toward the Target. With the Clubface aligned per 2-J-1, this will produce a "Push" Line of Flight (see Photo 10-5-D and description in 11-5-D). Hence, the "straight shot" result you referred to in your post. But, in reality, it is a 'Pushed' Shot to the right of the Open Impact Plane Line (and its parallel Low Point Plane Line).

I guess all I can do here is ask you to define what you mean by "Low Point Plane Line"? Then, maybe we will be better able to understand one another.

Here's the way it looks in my world:

In every geometrically correct Stroke, the Clubhead Path from Impact to Low Point -- assuming Impact occurs prior to Low Point -- is 'Inside-Out' (relative to the Impact Plane Line). This is true even with an 'Outside-In' Stroke (Plane Line Open to the Target Line) because Impact and Low Point are on the same Plane and that Plane is Inclined. It matters not how the Base Line (Plane Line) of the Plane intersects the Target Line, i.e., Square, Open or Closed.

Then, because the Low Point Plane Line (tangent to the Circle) is Down Plane from the parallel Impact Plane Line (chord to the Circle), it must always remain 'outside' it, never 'inside it (again, assuming a geometrically correct Stroke, even when that Stroke is 'Outside-In'). Therefore, with a Square Impact Plane Line, the likewise Square Low Point Plane Line can never point "left of the target".

So, summarizing the procedure I thought we were dealing with, namely:

1. A Square Impact Plane Line, i.e., one that is aligned to the Target;

2. A ball positioned on that Impact Plane Line and prior to Low Point (and thus struck on the Downstroke);

3. A parallel Low Point Plane Line located, by definition, Down Plane from the Impact Plane Line; then . . .

The Low Point Plane Line can never point left of the Target Line.

:salut:

Thank you for that. Let's look at the world another way as well.
 

I can not disagree with anything above that you have mentioned. Excellently stated and quite clear as I sift through my book (which is already coming apart).

My concern is, why should the impact plane line be a chord of the circle and not tangent to the circle and any chord that connects impact and low point is not parallel to a tangent of the circle from the same low point. This is true by definition of what a chord is.

A chord is "A line that links two points on a circle or curve only covering the inside of the circle."

for example:

Attachment 2472

Let's look at a secant because it helps with visualization.

A secant is, "A line that intersects a curve or circle at two points that extends to infinity." Basically, it's a chord but the line extend outside the circle to infinity.

Attachment 2473

and a tangent:

It "A line that contacts an arc or circle at only one point."

Attachment 2474


I define low point plane line as the line tangent to the point where low point occurs. I would also define the impact plane line using the same definition (a line tangent to the point where impact occurs).

Why would one plane line have a different definition than the other?

The only way to get a chord/secant parallel to a tangent is to move the point of low point. If one of the point remains constant, you will never get a chord/secant parallel to a tangent.

Consider the following (I'll use secants because it helps the viewer with visualization. Remember, secants are chords of the circle but with the lines extended to infinity)

In each picture, point (P) remains constant and point (Q) moves closer to it. Point (P) represents low point and point (Q) represents impact.


Attachment 2475

Attachment 2476

Clearly you can see that at no point is any chord parallel to the low point plane line. When (P) and (Q) are the same point then it becomes a tagent.

Can I move point (P) and make a parallel chord? Sure.

But why would I?

What would be the reason to justify that?

Thanks for your consideration.

Flying Off On a Chord
 

Because, except during a Low Point Impact, the Ball does not leave the Circle on an Impact Tangent (a line perpendicular to the radius and necessarily to the right of Target when the Ball is Up Plane from Low Point). Instead, because of the Golf Club's design (Hooked Face) it leaves the Circle on an Impact Chord (Impact Plane Line pointing toward the Target).

:golfcart2:

Ok Great. So am I understanding correctly that the impact plane line is of the ball and not the club head?

Seems strange. Hopefully, I'm misunderstanding.:confused1

What is confusing to me is looking at the bottom two circles from nevercrosses, and knowing that a ball struck before low point is going to produce an inside out path given an on plane swing from a square-square setup, now factor in a hooked face as stated.........wouldn't this produce one nasty hook?

ABSOLUTELY . . . that is what is impacted no? The ball would always be on the impact plane line . . . low point plane line and impact plane line get farther apart as you move the ball more back. as a result the angle of approach (and angle of attack in 3D) become more acute with angle of approach being defined as the line that connects impact point and low point. . . low point plane line and impact plane line would be the same if the ball is struck at low point . . . this is the only time impact would result in a tangent . . . impact plane line would be above the low point plane line if the ball were struck after low point . . . but still be a chord and not tangent.

Thank you for bringing my lack of respect and manners to my attention. I am truly grateful for any input received here from you and others that comment on my questions.

Thank You.

Thanks for that 12 piece.

Some follow up questions if you don't mind.

As I reread your reply and Lynn's reply, I get the impression that the impact plane line is the same as target line for a straight plane line strike from a square-square set-up.

Is that correct?

Secondly, where in this parallel line arrangement is the direction of the club head taken into account at impact? Surely, because the club head is still moving downward, outward and forward from impact to low point that the club path at impact is right of the impact plane line and the low point plane line.

If the face was square to the target at impact and the path is right of the target at impact, won't this ball draw?

If not, why not?

As always, Please forgive my lack of TGM terminology and understanding.

Study Hall
 

For Horizontal Hinge Action (Ideal Compression), the Clubface is Open at Impact and Square only at Separation (1-L #17).

And, using approximate 'clock' terms, the Center of the Ball is at 7:00 at Impact and at 6:00 -- and precisely On Line -- at
Separation.

Study 2-C-1 (Linear Force -- The Ideal Application) and Sketches 2-C-1 #1, #2A & B and #3.

:salut:

With your assumptions on the face conditions the ball would likely draw left of the target . . . I would think.

Yah that makes sense assuming enough clubhead speed, and enough divergence to the two. Wasnt there something about the degree of divergence necessary for curvature? Where the hecks my book.....

Thank you again.

I need to work on my terminology. All of those impacts should have said separation.

Now that I have looked at 2-C-1 #1, #2, #2b and #3 in more detail, it is more clear than ever that the striker is moving to the right. One would certainly have to point this to the left to create a straight shot if hit before low point.

It looks like HK was pretty darn close to describing the D-plane in pictures.

It took me a minute to figure things out.

I respect your work, its always well thought out and above else on this wonderful internet.......fair. :salut:

Its making more sense to me why having the proper setup with your clubs is important. The club makers have catered to open faces so they build in more "hook" face to compensate..so you get someone like me who is more inside than out who buys a set of these off the rack and it just exacerbates the problem.

Air,
First congratulations - posting at a 3.79 posts per day - clip - that's Ted Williams type stuff - even Bucket's a mere 1.91 post per day - at this rate you'll be LBG Hall of Fame material! :salut:

Air,
As long as the clubface "horizontal" alignment i.e. taking the loft out of the equation (we know that there is going to be backspin) and the clubhead path are on the line of compression - you'll hit a straight shot. If you've played the ball back far enough in your stance - "up plane" - then you'd need to have the plane line well left of the target line - in order to produce that straight shot.

Let's assume that the hinge action is "dual horizontal" - let's assume you're using a Sandwedge. Let's assume from a clubshaft parallel to the ground until the clubshaft has reached low point that the clubface closes 90 degrees - like a door. Now let's assume that the orbit length for that clubhead is 45 inches - from that parallel clubshaft halfway down location to that vertical clubshaft at lowpoint - Every inch of travel allows 2 degrees of clubface closing. Say you impact the ball 9 inches before low point - then your face is pointing 18 degrees right of target - the only way to hit that straight at the target is to have an open plane line. Hence, your straight shot at the target - with a divot 16 -18 degrees left of target. Completely legit - appropriate - and correct. Moral of the story- a divot well left of target isn't always a bad thing.

I guess it is easier to have a high postscore over a shorter time than those who have been 5 years or more.

I should maybe have mentioned that I was mostly talking about a 6 iron shot (and occasionally a 2-hybrid) and not so much the shorter irons, in case that makes a difference? I think you are the first who has given me permission to have divots to the left. Thank you. That would in case be terrific news.

If all shots went straight, there wouldn't have been any problems. But the slice also shows its ugly face.

Rule #1 - We spit on 12 Piece - don't post anything that might appear to promote or justify his insanity! :naughty:

How long has this been going on?

I'll try to watch my step.

1278 days .

I'll try to watch my steps.

Sounds familiar.

Doesn't it?

Nice Post.

Well, actually, the "Moral of the Story" is that regardless of the Divots apparent direction relative to the Target, it should always be taken Down and Out On-Plane.

Confusing Plane Line and Target line is for Amateurs.

oh, wait a minute.....where did I put that "water bucket"? :laughing9

BUT WE ARE AMATEURS, DARYL :laughing9



I think you nailed this one

Hmm? Only because we don't get paid. :laughing9

Us & Bobby, Daryl. Us & Bobby.

One of the very best sing & song writers in Norway had an album with the title Amatør.

Because an amateur does it out of love:headbang: :sad2:

Let's assume that the face rotation is this much during contact with the ball (which is debateable) and the face at separation is directly at the target line but the clubhead path is still traveling downward, outward and forward at this point.

Face pointing at target at separation, club continues down plane with path to the right even if parallel.

This is not a straight shot unless mishit on the heel causing some gear effect which eliminates draw spin axis.

\

The above image is of an inclined plane. There is only point on that plane that is more right than all the others. If that point points at the target and the ball impact is separated anytime before that point(while pointing at the target), the path of the club is going down, out and forward.

No straight shot.

I agree with this....will it be a ball that starts straight and falls a tad left or would the ball start off just right of the target and draw back?

Exactly what point is that? Can I hit a High straight or a Low straight shot?

The point of that is with a solid strike, as I understand it, with the impact plane(chord of the circle pointing at the target) and the straight low plane line(tangent of the circle) being parallel to the target but right of it, a straight shot is not going to happen ever.

If you have the requisite skills, low shots and high shots can be straight for sure.

:golf:

I think it would start only slightly left and cross over the target slightly. Still a usable shot for sure. Just not a straight one.