rolling starts where
 

When does the rolling start to take place ?

As soon as your left hand leaves its turned to the inclined plane condition in the Downstroke.

Swingers though they might be uncocking the left wrist on plane, can drag the left hand while its still turned to plane deep ........Sequenced Release, #2 then #3. Hitters by virtue of their pushing on the aft of the shaft tend push the left hand off the Inclined Plane earlier and thereby release #2 and #3 together.

Either way , to Delay Release keep your left hand turned to the inclined Plane longer via Drag or Float Loading. Late release, its not really all about left hand wrist cock as you might first think. Research CF Throwout. Once the clubhead passes the hands ......its going to release.

Roll or Swivel?

The Pivot closes (Rolls) the Clubface in relation to the Plane Line. Zone 1

Swivel is the longitudinal rolling of the shaft around the Sweetspot. Zone 3


Different purposes, different issues, different solutions. Keeping them separate is especially important for Swingers to Hinge through Impact and not Swivel through Impact.

Test your "Roll" by using 10-19-C (below). If you didn't throw yourself off-plane during the Backstroke and/or your Pivot is functioning according to Plan, then the Ball should fly straight. Otherwise, you should correct your "Roll" before trying to correct your "Swivel". (Correct Zone 1 issues before Zone 3)

Swivel:

First, it's important for the #3 Pressure Point to be located on top of the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Golf Club. This way, Clubhead Lag senses and directs the Sweetspot Plane and not the Clubshaft Plane. This is important because if you sense the Clubshaft, then you will attempt to rotate the Clubhead around the shaft and not the shaft around the Sweetspot (Shank - and all sorts of mishits).

Second, it's important to have a Flat Left Wrist while Uncocking the Left Wrist. You can't roll Swivel with a Bent Left Wrist (Shank - and all sorts of mishits).

I use a trick to Swivel. While my Left Wrist is Uncocking, I bump the Left Wrist. I arch it ever so slightly. The Arching of the Left Wrist "Swivels" the Clubface. (AKA Hogan). The Bump stops the Swivel from "over-Swiveling" and transitions nicely into the Hinge. Practice this while using only your Left Hand on the Club. You can see how the bump changes the Attitude of the Clubface and how clubface control through impact becomes strictly a Hinge Action. If you're having difficulty, then bend your Left Wrist slightly during the Backstroke and flatten it during the downstroke. Momentum will slightly arch the left wrist.

Rolling the wrists IS the proper way.

"Keeping them separate is especially important for Swingers to Hinge through Impact and not Swivel through Impact".


Thank you for the answer Daryl but I am having trouble with the statement above. I am having trouble telling the difference between hinge and swivel.
I thought swivel takes place after the follow through? How can I swivel through impact if it doesn't start until after the follow through? As you can see I am a little confused. The problem I have is with HINGE and where it takes place.

"As soon as your left hand leaves its flat to the inclined plane condition in the Downstroke".


Ok where in relation to the body does this action take place?
When the hands are hip level, thigh level, hands are even with the ball?

I so agree!
This (4-D-0 to start) is in need of better/more research and explanation by Homer Kelley - but alas, we know that can never happen, we say with a Sigh- A NEW defining term is needed to describe what happen with the wrists and hands and Rhythm and CF during a "sequenced" release. Because it is neither swivel nor roll. IT IS A DANCE. A CHOREOGRAPHED DANCE . And the key is in the choreography (12-3-0-21,22,23)

The Bear

Jerry,

You are referring to the "Finish Swivel". Both Hitters and Swingers "Finish Swivel". There is also a Start-up Swivel and Pre-Impact Swivel for Swingers only.

The Swivel is a completely different Concept than Hinging.

SWIVEL:

After start-up, when the club shaft is parallel to the ground and parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane, take a look at your club face. If the Clubface is vertical to the ground, then you have not swiveled. If it's almost laying On-Plane, then you have Swiveled. It's a "Hand Motion".

Hinging is the motion alignment of the Clubface through Impact. Horizontal, Angled or Vertical.


Your Clubface should be Vertical to the ground when entering the HINGE interval of Impact. So,,,you need to Swivel before Impact, then Hinge through Impact. Then, after follow-through, you will swivel again for the finish.

Videos of Yoda demonstrating the "Finish Swivel" has you focus on the Finish Swivel. If you Focus on the Finish Swivel (and preparing to finish swivel) then most everything else will fall into place.

I substitute "Grip Motion" for "Hand motion" swivel because it's easier for me.

So, Swiveling is the Clubface Alignment to the Inclined Plane and is a Hand Motion. The Clubface is Rotated to lie on the Plane going Back, square (Perpendicular, vertical) for Impact, and once again rotated to lie on Plane after the Follow-through ... "Finish swivel". Hinging is the Motion Alignment through the Impact Interval.

So,,,you need to Swivel before Impact, then Hinge through Impact. Then, after follow-through, you will swivel again for the finish.


Thanks Daryl.

So I can try and keep the sequence right for my mind it should be (1)unco*k--(2)pre impact swivel--(3)hinge action through impact. Is this right?

All this should be automatic with a swinger, right?

The swivel starts about at my right thigh or should it be later or sooner ?

Jerry,

Minnesota will be an eye-opener. :)

???????????????????????

Big D,
City will be visiting JerryG, not jerry1967.
I wish you would by joining him. The first thing we are going to do is compare hinge actions.

My hinges are very squeaky. Is that bad? :)

Kevin

Oh boy. Different Jerry. Sorry about that.

KevCarter should have put on a "Clinic". I bet that Mini-sota has perfect weather this time of year.

Education
 

<<The three Basic Wrist Motions can be classified as:
4-A. Horizontal Bend and Arch (Clubshaft) Grip Motion
4-B. Perpendicular Cock and Uncock (Clubhead) Wrist Motion
4-C. Rotational Turn and Roll (Clubface) Hand Motion>>

What do we learn from the "Grip Motion, Wrist Motion and Hand Motion" additions? Or, what is lost with their elimination?

I could see now why people swing.
 

In my current "quiet swing," I lean left and (quietly ) bend my right wrist back and my elbow and then I (quietly) throw my Primary Lever down and watch the wrist uncock and the blade start to open before impact which is fine for precision. Am I steering? Oh, I get it, the Pre-Impact Swivel (PIS) carries whichever hinge is selected to impact. It is the momentum of the PIS that makes the Finishing Swivel (FS) happen.

I need an Oreo and a bathroom break! :) No, wait, I need a Minnesoota smorgasboard break!!!!

Daryl, you and OB would be welcome up North!

Pat

Now and always we need to control the Clubshaft, Clubhead and Clubface. We control the three Basic Wrist Motions which controls them. We can monitor the Wrist conditions and Motions. Design your stroke pattern around achieving their control.

There are no substitutes. They are fundamental mechanics. Compensations cannot make up for the loss, misuse, neglect or avoidance of any one of them.

Certainly! But, for example, 4-A is a Wrist Motion. Why add "Grip Motion?" Does this suggest how 4-A should be practiced?

There are three defined Left Wrist Actions for normal use. Single, Standard and Double. Left Wrist Action is in Zone 3.

Single:

1. Perpendicular Only
2. (Clubhead) Wristcock.
3. Wrist Motion Only.

Standard:

1. Perpendicular and Rotational
2. (Clubhead & Clubface) "Wristcock" plus "Turn and Roll".
3. Wrist Motion and Hand Motion.

Double:

1. Perpendicular, Rotational and Horizontal
2. (Clubhead, Clubface & Clubshaft) "Wristcock" plus "Turn and Roll" plus "Bend and Arch".
3. Wrist Motion and Hand Motion and Grip Motion.

One can choose Zone 3 to control one, two or all three. Clubface, Clubhead, Clubshaft.

Example:

1. Standard Wrist Action "Zero's" out (by using a Flat Left Wrist) Horizontal Motion (Clubshaft Control) by giving Clubshaft control to Zone 2 Left Arm Flying Wedge.
   
2. Hitters assign Clubhead Control to Zone 2. Swingers assign Clubhead Control to Zone 3.

These options are for creating a 2 dimensional Clubhead orbit follow a three dimensional path and make the Clubface Vertical for Impact. Only then, can Hinging control the Clubface Motion through the Impact Interval.

For a swinger's sequenced release - When the left wrist is uncocked and the right arm starts to straighten

Is one "Hinging" and one "Turn and Roll"?

The other way of posing this question is "where does Release take place?".

Full Sweep Release would have it happen very early for a high floater around the green or a shot over a tree or something. A knock down would see it happen later as you add shaft lean. Delayed Release for added power, early Release for a higher trajectory , etc etc . Release is one of the tools of the shot maker. A machine adjustment.

Seems like PGA tour guys are using the pivot, the rolling hands or a combo of both which is the best? Or should one use different ones depending on the length of the shot?

Everyone uses the Pivot. Fast, Slow and everywhere in-between. But Rolling of the Hands? I have two video links posted below. Both of the same golfer who has an exceptionally powerful Pivot.


The First Video is a slow motion side view capture of the "so called - Rolling Hands". Watch this video and observe the Left Wrist Roll through the Impact Interval. Do you call this "Roll"? I call this "Swiveling into Hinge Action". Turn and Roll is the Clubface opening or closing to the Plane Line which is controlled by the Pivots Rotation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=9e-F...eature=related


The Second video is a Slow mo down the line view. Observe his Right Hand #3 Accumulator Roll. It's basically perfect. Paddle-wheel, Hogans underhand pitch, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69nRkKUsv1g


After comparing your observations, tell me if you still think the same way. Did he Swivel or was his Left Wrist Swiveled by the #3 Accumulator?

WHAT???? This don't look nothing like no Hogan . . . .

I came across this one recently ....thought you'd like it Buck if you havent seen it already. Nice, eh?


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128450059 3

Hey O.B. Look what I found at an Antique Bookstore. :)

Do you think he would benefit by keeping the right wrist bent a bit longer past impact?

I don't know.

The Purpose of Video #2 was to show the Right Hand Motion from Release to Impact. Compare that with the First Video while looking at his Left Wrist Rotation. How does one reconcile these differences.

Is he Swiveling his Left Wrist?
Is his Right Hand Swiveling his Left Wrist?

Man, thats a find D.

I only have the old abridged version from Reader Digest that deals with "the 12 Piece takeaway" and "swing in a Bucket".

Hi oh!

NICE! Just noticed the dig on the cover! Nice work Daryl . . . . .

Ricky F looks like Hogan for a while (minus the Barney outfits) . . . until he turns into a plane line shifting wrist rubber.

Keep asking the questions, D!
 

If I may quote a genius (not Yoda, YL, BB, OB, KC, JG, BR, or you):

"For your desire to know what is between us, O'ermaster 't as you may. And now, good friends, ... There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio..."

http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/hamlet/6/

Lmao!!!!
 

Clever!:laughing9

Hmm?

Swivel then Hinge (per options in Darryl Post#19)???
 

Is it correct to say that all (3) hinge actions are prepared for via the swivel motion? AND, that:

Based upon required ball flight, the hinge method is performed through (1)for "vertical" hinge, only an uncocking of the left wrist (clubhead)to maintain an alignment of the clubshaft with the left arm thru and post impact (which actually requires a concious manipulation to prevent any rotation thru impact, (2)for "angle hinging", an uncocking, a rotation of clubface but no required manipulation which allows centrifugal force to naturally align the clubshaft with the left arm thru impact continuing to a clubshaft alignment that is halfway between both arms ("tug of war" style) post impact, and (3) for "horizontal hinging", an uncocking, a rotation AND a concious manipulation to arch the left wrist through impact which "toggles" the clubshaft from an initial alignment with the left arm over to a perfect alignment with the right arm post impact.

Is it wrong to simply decide what clubshaft alignment (left, right, or center from above descriptions) we prefer post impact? Does our right arm flying wedge angle change in any of the above hinges? Is there any other hinge action that we would ever use (i.e. a high bunker shot would we align the shaft with the left arm yet use an arched wrist to achieve a "flip"? Sorry for incoherent rambling (also known as my preshot routine!)