Requesting Guidance...
 

Howdy everyone,

Almost three years ago I was a 4 handicap and struggling with slicing the ball. Whilst searching for a solution I stumbled upon the "Never Slice Again" video by Brian Manzella. This served as my introduction to "The Golfing Machine" and I decided to purchase the book in an effort to better understand my golf swing and (hopefully) improve it. However, I didn't get too far into learning "The Golfing Machine" as at the time golfing related frustrations came to a head and I went on a golfing hiatus.

The golfing hiatus lasted until just over two weeks ago. Inspired by the U.S open, I decided to hit some golf balls. Since then I have just been focusing on trying to get my wrists releasing correctly and that's about it. Surprisingly, the contact has been consistently in the middle of the club face and my primary misses have gone from being slices/push-slices (before the golfing hiatus) to hooks/pull-hooks (if I forget to swing slightly in-to-out).

As you've probably worked out, I am not really familiar with "The Golfing Machine" terminology. However, I do want to learn. I would really appreciate some guidance on the following two issues.

First, what are the main areas I should be working on currently?

http://www.youtube.com/cummib

Note: I apologise for the low quality video. I will get high quality video uploaded once I purchase a new camera.

Second, what is the most effective way to learn the fundamentals mentioned in "The Golfing Machine"? As I've learnt, it's not really a book you can read cover to cover.

This time around I want to ensure that I am working on the right things and although I would love to see a TGM instructor, there are none in my state (I am located in NSW, Australia).

Any help regarding the above would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

The best way to start learning TGM is through the free videos right here at LBG!

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.php/Categories.html

After that, the premium video Alignment Golf will become the most used resourse you will ever find for TGM.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...ypage.tpl.html

There are some wonderful instructors of TGM in New South Wales. Check out our sister website:

http://forums.iseekgolf.com/forums/1...lf-instruction

Kevin

Hi Kev,

Thanks for the reply.

I am interested in purchasing "Alignment Golf". However, do you know if there is a digital version, as I'm not keen on paying postage from the U.S to Australia.

Regarding the ISG website, is there a listing of TGM instructors on there or should I ask in the forums? The official TGM website only listed one TGM instructor located in Australia (who was in Melbourne, Victoria).

I would ask on the forums. There are many great teachers of TGM around the world who aren't listed on TGM's website.

Good Luck!

Kevin

Hi Kev,

Thanks for replying (again).

I will go ahead and ask on the ISG forums regarding a TGM instructor located in NSW. In the meantime, I have purchased the TGM related videos through the Peter Croker website. I would have liked to purchase "Alignment Golf" but would prefer a digital downloadable version that is instantly accessible. Hopefully, Lynn will do this for "Alignment Golf II".

In my original post I asked "what are the main areas I should be working on currently?" What I should have been asking is "based on my current golf swing, should I adopt a hitting or swinging basic pattern?" Do you have any thoughts on if I would be better suited to hitting or swinging?

As always, your help is greatly appreciated.

Edit: I just noticed that Lynn recommended learning the basic swinging pattern before the basic hitting pattern, so I'll start with 12-2-0.

Well, I have no willpower as I went ahead and purchased "Alignment Golf" anyway. Hopefully, international postage doesn't take too long. :golfcart:

Its normally very quick BC85 so you shouldn't be waiting too long.

I have to say that the physical version to me is much better than if there was a digital version mainly because you can stick it in the DVD player!

It may be worthwhile purchasing the Brian Gay stroke fundamntals digital video but I have to admit that despite owning it for 3 or more years I have never watched it fully!

BC85,

I wouldn't presume to try to diagnose a swing change for you based upon 1 video, without seeing ball flight. You have a very nice action!

Swinging and hitting can be a "feel" thing as much as being mechanical. There are many aspects of both that are very similar, and some of the differences are not very pronounced. In my opinion, it's more important to understand the components one by one, until you understand them enough to start putting them together into a pattern. Start by trying to determine if you mainly feel like you are pulling with your left side, or pushing with your right.

A LOT of fog will be lifted when you get your Alignment Golf DVDs. You will watch them over and over!

If I could boldly make one observation on your swing, study Hula-Hula and listen to how YODA discusses the hip bump at start down. Its a very small movement, but an incredibly important one. At start down, the left hip must get over the left foot, that's all there is to weight shift. This must happen before the hips start turing, and the shoulders should never get forward of your hips.

Kevin

I forgot to mention, I really like the Croker/Hart videos as well. Paul Hart does most of the explaining in those videos. He hangs out here as well and is VERY compatible with the teachings you will find here with YODA. Paul Hart follows Mr. Kelley's main tenant that there is no right, wrong or best, do what you enjoy, have fun!

A great quote from TheDart when discussing -L the Machine Concept:

FEEL FROM MECHANICS
The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work. The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error.

Being in Australia, I believe you should try to make the trip to Sydney to see Paul just as we in the states want to travel to Georgia to see YODA.

Kevin

Well, if you ever get around to watching it be sure to let me know how it is.

Thanks for your explanation. In regards to pulling with the left or pushing with the right, I feel that on the down swing I start pulling with the left and before impact I start pushing with the right. I am unsure if this is actuality or simply sensation.

I would say that is a really good observation, Kevin. I have struggled to understand the lateral move that the hips must perform at the start of the down swing. Everytime I experimented, it felt as if I had excessive axis tilt. This was certainly my downfall whilst experimenting with "Stack and Tilt".

I assumed Paul Hart was located in Victoria (like Peter Croker). However, if he is in Sydney (New South Wales) then that would be ideal. I tried doing a Google search to see if he had a website with contact details and pricing, but had no luck. What is Paul's username on this forum? Hopefully, he won't mind if I PM him.

Thanks so much for all your help, Kevin. This forum is such a great resource.

The best way to catch Paul is on iSeek. His handle there is TheDart. He interacts a lot over there, in fact is one of the founders of the forum. I'm sorry, I was thinking earlier the Melbourne was in New South Wales rather than Victoria. Never very good with geography. I spent a summer in Melbourne as an exchange student, I should know better. Paul is indeed in Sydney!

Your comment:

I think most teachers would agree with that comment 100%, in fact many would say there is no pure swinger, or no pure hitter. That's why I called it a "feel" thing, you can't argue someones "feel" and I don't care to debate the golf swing. OPTIONS! :) :salut:

Please let us know if you get to see our friend Paul!

Kevin

At the risk of running foul of Admin for posting Darty's details, his signature on iseek reads:

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range


My signature reads:

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

GP, one of my favorite quotes! I copied the same one in a PM to Ben. :)

Kevin

Thanks for the help guys. I am going to watch "Alignment Golf" (when it arrives) and bring myself up to speed with TGM terminology. Once this occurs, I will definitely be going to see Paul Hart.

Well, I received the "Alignment Golf" DVDs yesterday and watched all of them last night. I identified some areas (extensor action and pivot) that I believed I needed to work on. Unfortunately, even after spending 7 hours today hitting golf balls, I was unable to make any progress (which I assume is due to incorrect execution).

I feel quite lost and confused at the moment. I was hoping that "Alignment Golf" was going to be the key to understanding how to build my swing pattern. However, I don't understand how to progress from basic motion, to acquired motion, to total motion. In addition, I don't understand how to identify what mechanics I am performing incorrectly. I know that mechanics are meant to produce feel and feel is meant to reproduce mechanics, but if I don't know how to perform the mechanics in the first place then it means very little.

Ultimately, it has been a frustrating 24 hours and I am sick of seeing out-to-in left pointing divots. Hopefully, tomorrow will be better.

BC85,

It's a long road, and worth every minute of the travel if you want to develop a swing for the rest of your life. No quick fixes, and no band-aids.

IMHO, TGM is the key to learning how to develop a stroke, and Alignment Golf is the key to learning TGM. You will need to add an instructor who understands TGM to the equation for faster progress. What you are learning from the videos will be a huge help in understanding what your teacher is looking for...

Kevin

Thanks for the reassurance, Kevin. I am going to make another thread in the appropriate "Emergency Room" section (as I've since learnt that this thread was incorrectly placed) and see what other TGM enthusiasts think about my current pattern. I really appreciate all the help you have given me.

Anytime my friend!

:golf:

alignment golf
 

The DVD is great. At age 71 and over 20 years experience of and on with TGM I can't emphasize enough the importance of an instructor. Unfortunately you can't do it yourself no matter how high you IQ. You brain lies to you. The golf machine is filled with illusions and a endless assortment of "feels". However you need the basic "textbook" knowledge to get the most out of a lesson with an authorized instructor. You need to be able to speak the language. I would go see someone for several hours, the rewards will be beyound your expectations. I know Paul Hart and Paul Smith are wonderful at what they do. Go see one of em no matter the cost.

You really think TGM is that difficult to learn/implement?

I have to agree with David Sandridge.

requesting guidance
 

Golf is difficult to learn later in life. You can not make something complex simple. TGM is a solid foundation of truth. Bobby Clampett said he wished he hadn't listened to other voices. Stick with TGM. It not the study of it that is difficult. It is the implementation. All of the various combinations and choices make it an entertainment for a lifetime. Instructors reduce the frustration and I am always stunned at my false ideas of what I need to correct. Cameras help but an instructor with a complete knowledge of the swing helps you get thru the complexity.

IMHO the golf swing is difficult but TGM is not - it cuts through all the BS.

Oh boy, here we go. When is it time to lay down and pull that divot over yourself? Don’t get me wrong, because I agree more than I disagree. But, I WILL NOT GO GENTLY INTO THAT GOOD NIGHT. As an aside, what is later in life? 25? 35? Or real old like 40?-Please mail me your car keys!
Golf is a FEEL. How U get it is the mystery. Exactly what is the feel of a “satisfactory” golf stroke? When is the appropriate time to seek the assistance of an instructor? How can I take away some "benchmarks" that will keep me from running myself into the ditch? I often wonder if many of those on the tour were not just lucky when they built a foundation and learned to play. I am reminded of the Charles Barkley's of this game.

The Bear

Hi BC. Stai calme!
 

BC and David you both remind me of me, in a good way.:)

It took me about 3000 balls and 7 rounds of golf to understand Extensor Action or about three weeks of using it everywhere. Now, I can regularly hit chips and shots and putts at the pin. In the last three rounds, I have chipped in 6 times and had lots of "up and downs" for pars. I bet I could punch shot my way around any course with a 7 iron and a putter and shoot 80 something on most courses.

My point? The mechanics taught me the correct feel which I use all the time. It has been since March of this year that I started using the RFFW but only in the last 5 days have I locked it out and been able to hit a full swing down the middle on purpose with every club in my bag.

Learn this and have fun with it. I joke with these guys about shooting par from a 21 hcp. in one season. The damn thing is, if my body (artificial hip and short front leg, 11 hip operations) can withstand all theses changes, I'll be playing you straight up in October of this year, esp. if you don't work with this stuff. As it is, if you give me 15 strokes, my hcp. index, you'll pay for everything, all the time. :laughing9

Patrick

No, without the proper mechanics, a feel is just confusion.
 

http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio

Bear, your use of reductio is a concern. :naughty:
Without taking risks to understand mysteries, nothing improves. A "satisfactory" golf stroke has power and precision and is repeatable under the demands of competition or personal use. An instructor is useful whenever a person wants help in learning anything anytime they feel they need help and can reasonably get that help. "Benchmarks" are provided like crazy in TGM. For example, "The Magic of the Right Forearm," offers at least five benchmarks including a way to "start-up," that is "on plane," "repeatable" "can be used by hitters or swingers," and "can be used with Basic Motion, Acquired, and Total Motion," to help any golfer achieve power and precision in their game.
(I'm sure there are 10 other insights I just haven't gotten to, yet.) :)

I think luck is part of a lot success as is hard work. Is hand-eye coordination talent or luck? Was Moe Norman's Autism talent or luck?

Lots of tour pros in past times had parts of the insights found in TGM. (TGM is not filled with original insights as as much as it is a catalogue of logically connected, effective insights, imho.) They combined them with hard work and made a living on tour for a time. But if any of those pros had a TGM book as we do, and experienced teachers who could communicate those insights, they would've taken full advantage. Look at how hard Hogan and Norman practiced. Which part of their lives were just plain luck without any hard work?

I have met Charles Barkley. He has been kind and generous with his time in supporting many different charities. He worked very hard to be a basketball and TV star. If he ever allowed a TGM-based instructor to work with him and his golf swing, he'd enjoy his game much more.

I hope you are enjoying your golf game these days.

Patrick

Ain’t that cool?
My interrogatory was not without prologue.
Golf, specially G.O.L.F. is not in want of ILLUSIONS-without regard of source.
As our neighbor Robert Frost said in “Dust of snow” or was it “fire and ice”,
Have A Good Day

The Bear

This is a good post,i hope that i can read more from here,and i hope that the website will become better and better.

If it was a TGM-based instructor who knew how to teach hitting you might be right. His down stroke yips spells "I need to hit" with capital letters.

My experience has been that TGm s a slow process, especially educating the hands. I have been a classic throw awayer and focused on my first area of wobble, which was the basic motion. I thought surely i could do the basic motion without throw away but could not. Simply was not doing what I thought or felt. However, after a LOT of closed eyes swings and look, look, look i got it.

Eventually, when you can feel what the hands are doing, big break throughs occur, and a lot of joy. So, IMO sticking with the step by step curriculum is the best method, and identifying the first area of wobble and working like heck on it before moving on.

Doing it based on feel rather than mechanics will waist a lot of time.

Great post chipingguru. Isn't that the truth!!!

Not only slow, but a life long journey. That's also one of TGM's strong points IMHO. Once you master one concept, there is always another to work on, and the foundation you have built is solid and unwavering... Different "science" principles may come up, different ways to measure the swing and ball flight are improved upon every day, but the way we choose to propel the golf ball does not need to change.


Kevin

for me i advanced lite years ahead by doing slow motion swings. i began with basic to acquired to punch and so on. i realised i was blacking out during impact so id concentrate more on my hands and bingo. i actually still practice at 20-30% as it reinforces some great feelings at the slower pace. when it comes to playing my hands know where to go just like eating with a knife and fork!

educated hands!

Sorry that I have neglected this thread. Since previously posting, I have purchased a high FPS camera for the purposes of recording my golf swing. You can check out my latest video below. Be sure to let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-nbdqNtC9o

What were you looking for with your eyes closed?
Just kidding.