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scottcuban 03-29-2010 07:15 AM

Where to begin? PLEASE HELP
 
Good morning all,

I am new here and have been playing golf for 20 years. I started around 20 years old and I am sorry I didn't start sooner. I have tried almost every method/system out there and I mean almost every one. I read a lot and spend way too much time studying how to groove a better golf swing. I have not read the little yellow book and have been told that it is way too technical and I would get more confused. It is definitely intimidating. I do like what I have seen here though. I think this may be my long lost answer.
Here is my question, where do I begin? Do I need the book? I see there are there videos to purchase and watch and I ask where should I start? Which would be the most helpful to get going in the right direction.
I apologize as this has probably been asked before but I am lost and a bit overwhelmed. If someone (hopefully Yoda himself) can give me direction as to where to start, I would forever be grateful.

Thank you

KevCarter 03-29-2010 09:34 AM

Scott,

The book is tough, but very important. Get the book and take it in small bits and pieces. Start with Mr. Kelley's recommended approach to how to read it which is in the first part of the book. You may not start getting anything meaningful out of it for quite sometime, but if you stick with it patiently it will start making sense along with what you learn by reading this website.

The best way to start is with video. Start with YODA'S free videos here in the gallery. Watch the Colin Neeman series, that will keep you busy. When you are done with those, buy the Alignment Golf dvds in the premium section. The best learning tool for TGM ever done.

Also, to get started right away with improving your swing the TGM way, I really like Bobby Clampett's book The Impact Zone. It's not 100% in line with YODA, but it's a great start.

TGM is not an easy road, but it's a VERY rewarding one if you stick with it.

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71684)
Good morning all,

I am new here and have been playing golf for 20 years. I started around 20 years old and I am sorry I didn't start sooner. I have tried almost every method/system out there and I mean almost every one. I read a lot and spend way too much time studying how to groove a better golf swing. I have not read the little yellow book and have been told that it is way too technical and I would get more confused. It is definitely intimidating. I do like what I have seen here though. I think this may be my long lost answer.
Here is my question, where do I begin? Do I need the book? I see there are there videos to purchase and watch and I ask where should I start? Which would be the most helpful to get going in the right direction.
I apologize as this has probably been asked before but I am lost and a bit overwhelmed. If someone (hopefully Yoda himself) can give me direction as to where to start, I would forever be grateful.

Thank you


12 piece bucket 03-29-2010 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71684)
Good morning all,

I am new here and have been playing golf for 20 years. I started around 20 years old and I am sorry I didn't start sooner. I have tried almost every method/system out there and I mean almost every one. I read a lot and spend way too much time studying how to groove a better golf swing. I have not read the little yellow book and have been told that it is way too technical and I would get more confused. It is definitely intimidating. I do like what I have seen here though. I think this may be my long lost answer.
Here is my question, where do I begin? Do I need the book? I see there are there videos to purchase and watch and I ask where should I start? Which would be the most helpful to get going in the right direction.
I apologize as this has probably been asked before but I am lost and a bit overwhelmed. If someone (hopefully Yoda himself) can give me direction as to where to start, I would forever be grateful.

Thank you


1. Watch all the free stuff on this site . . . .
2. Look at all the pictures on this site . . . .
3. Get in a bunker . . . put a line in the sand vertical to your stance line bewteen your feet where the ball would be . . . learn to take sand divots on the left side of that line
3a. make sure your left wrist is flat and right wrist is bent thru the ball when you are taking your proper side of the line divots in front of the ball
3b. Once you can do that learn to hit hard punch shots and verify that you kept your left wrist flat and right wrist bent
4. Stick you head on a wall or in a door jam . . . learn what your body has to do to make a pivot to keep your head from moving around . . .
5. Find a long straight line and learn to be on plane . . . lowest end of the club points at the "plane" line and club is parallel to the plane line when its parallel to the ground. Also keep in mind the entire shaft also LAYS on the face of the plane so if you can get some video of your motion down the line check to see if your club is doing anything wacky from approximately waist high down to waist high through the ball.
6. get a mop or wrap a towel around the head of your club . . . drag from about 3 feet behind your right foot on the ground simulating the thru stroke . . . . learn to feel "lag pressure" and what it means to keep your wrist bent and the clubhead trailing.
7. Take some video and load it here . . . .you'll get good advice

KevCarter 03-29-2010 11:28 AM

Great post Bucket!

I hope you don't mind if you see me use some of that in the future for similar questions? Very well done Sir!

Kevin

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 71692)
1. Watch all the free stuff on this site . . . .
2. Look at all the pictures on this site . . . .
3. Get in a bunker . . . put a line in the sand vertical to your stance line bewteen your feet where the ball would be . . . learn to take sand divots on the left side of that line
3a. make sure your left wrist is flat and right wrist is bent thru the ball when you are taking your proper side of the line divots in front of the ball
3b. Once you can do that learn to hit hard punch shots and verify that you kept your left wrist flat and right wrist bent
4. Stick you head on a wall or in a door jam . . . learn what your body has to do to make a pivot to keep your head from moving around . . .
5. Find a long straight line and learn to be on plane . . . lowest end of the club points at the "plane" line and club is parallel to the plane line when its parallel to the ground. Also keep in mind the entire shaft also LAYS on the face of the plane so if you can get some video of your motion down the line check to see if your club is doing anything wacky from approximately waist high down to waist high through the ball.
6. get a mop or wrap a towel around the head of your club . . . drag from about 3 feet behind your right foot on the ground simulating the thru stroke . . . . learn to feel "lag pressure" and what it means to keep your wrist bent and the clubhead trailing.
7. Take some video and load it here . . . .you'll get good advice


scottcuban 03-29-2010 11:54 AM

Thank you both for the help. I have been looking at the free stuff and would purchase the premium stuff but I just want to do it a productive order.

12 piece bucket 03-29-2010 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71694)
Thank you both for the help. I have been looking at the free stuff and would purchase the premium stuff but I just want to do it a productive order.

TGM is most certainly a "journey" . . . . one thing you want to define is WHERE you intend to go prior to your embarking down the Yellow Brick Road . . . . the road CAN BE (doesn't have to) rough, difficult, and include dead ends seemingly at times.

So you need to define what your destination is . . .

a. do you want to learn/conceptualize the items that will make you a better ball striker?
b. do you want to "learn the book"? TGM is a puzzle with tons and tons of mixed up pieces . . . seemingly with no outside or corner pieces at first . . . are you putting the whole puzzle together? Or are you gonna just get enough pieces together that you can tell a set of eyeballs from a set of boobies . . .
c. do you wanna teach it . . .

scottcuban 03-29-2010 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 71698)
TGM is most certainly a "journey" . . . . one thing you want to define is WHERE you intend to go prior to your embarking down the Yellow Brick Road . . . . the road CAN BE (doesn't have to) rough, difficult, and include dead ends seemingly at times.

So you need to define what your destination is . . .

a. do you want to learn/conceptualize the items that will make you a better ball striker?
b. do you want to "learn the book"? TGM is a puzzle with tons and tons of mixed up pieces . . . seemingly with no outside or corner pieces at first . . . are you putting the whole puzzle together? Or are you gonna just get enough pieces together that you can tell a set of eyeballs from a set of boobies . . .
c. do you wanna teach it . . .

]

Well, I guess my primary focus is being a better ball striker nad enjoying this game a little more. I don't expect to be Nicklaus and I don't even expect to become scratch, but I do hope that a single digit handicap is possible. When (if) I get there, then I may strive for more.
I don't need to be a GSED and I don't need to become a teacher but it would not be nice to have a better grasp of things and be able to diagnose and correct problems that may arise. I am realistic at this point in my life. I'm 40, not super athletic but not a spaz either. I played sports growing up, (baseball, hockey, and a little touch tackle) and I was average to pretty good, never a superstar. I am setting my expectations low and hoping for the best. I hope this is the correct path?
Either way, thank you for the assistance.

12 piece bucket 03-29-2010 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71700)
]

Well, I guess my primary focus is being a better ball striker nad enjoying this game a little more. I don't expect to be Nicklaus and I don't even expect to become scratch, but I do hope that a single digit handicap is possible. When (if) I get there, then I may strive for more.
I don't need to be a GSED and I don't need to become a teacher but it would not be nice to have a better grasp of things and be able to diagnose and correct problems that may arise. I am realistic at this point in my life. I'm 40, not super athletic but not a spaz either. I played sports growing up, (baseball, hockey, and a little touch tackle) and I was average to pretty good, never a superstar. I am setting my expectations low and hoping for the best. I hope this is the correct path?
Either way, thank you for the assistance.

Absolutely a valid path! You can certainly get to single digit . . . to me much of that is simply getting some proper concepts in your mind and applying them. Certainly the biggest component is sustaining and manipulating the line of compression . . . . sounds like something complicated . . . that if you said to a regular cat he'd smack a toof outcha mouth. But basically you have to understand 2 things . . . . how to hit the ball SOLID . . . you're not gonna have fun as you say if you are sticking the club in the ground behind the ball all the time . . . . and then understanding what causes the ball to fly the way it flys . . .

you MUST understand that the FACE is for all intents and purposes totally responsible for the ball's starting direction . . . and the paths RELATIONSHIP to the face determines the direction it curves . . . if your path is RIGHT of where the face is looking then the ball curves LEFT . . . if the path is LEFT of where the face is looking the ball curves RIGHT.

Now we must assume that you can hit the ball reasonably on the sweetspot for the rules to apply . . . and per the above you sound like you ain't no spazz . . . so if you want a ball to start left of your target and then peel back to the right you'd better have the FACE LOOKING LEFT the target to get it to start left and have the path left of the face to put fade spin on it. For a draw . . . face is gonna look right of the target to get it to start right of it and then the path is going to be right of the face to put draw spin on it so she curves to the left.

So if you take the Imperatives and Essentials as defined by Mr. Kelley as the skeleton . . . then you can start hanging meat on it . . . .

Essentials
1. Stationary Head - Mr. Kelley is saying you want a CENTERED pivot. Why? Centered motion results in predictability. OK . . . predictability of what? Hand Path, Plane Angle and Low Point. The club is gonna bottom out where your left shoulder is . . . so if you are moving you head all around you're gonna move low point around as well . . . there's part of your "hitting it solid component." Also if your head Bobbs . . . moves up and down you are going to disrupt your radius and likely shift the plane line and/or angle . . . HANDLE LOCATION . . . just like a side hill lie . . . if you raise the handle the face vector opens . . . if you lower it it shuts . . . tape a tee to the face and see the implications . . . Mr. Kelley said . . . plane shifts are HAZARDOUS . . . .and the become more hazardous the closer you get to the ball (impact). You'll hear talk of educated hands a lot out here . . . but the most educated set of hands can't compensate for a whackjob pivot. If you shift the plane angle through the ball you effectively created a sidehill lie DYNAMICALLY.

2. Balance . . . you want to stay upright . . . you want your machine to have the proper weight distribution TO THE BALL . . . in other words you don't wanna have weight hanging back thru the ball . . . screws up the whole system . . . if your weight is forward it's easier to get your handle forward . . . we want the clubhead LAGGING the handle . . . you want to lean the ENTIRE SHAFT ON THE BALL . . . hard to do that hanging back . . . also weight back makes your clubface want to close fast . . . think of a dog on a chain . . . run outta chain . . . dog get choked . . . in this case clubhead passes handle and face closes FASTER . . . we want uniform predictable motion of the clubface (hinge action).

3. Rhythm . . . first of all you need to know what Rhythm AIN'T . . . and it AIN'T TEMPO . . . Rhythm is the CLUBSHAFT and LEFT ARM staying IN LINE . . . if you don't know about the Tally . . . look it up . . . the key to this is the left wrist motion and it's relation to the pivot as described in #2 above . . . Vertical Motion in the left wrist is GOOD . . . vertical motion is defined by Mr. Kelley as cocking and uncocking . . . think of HAMMERING . . . you hammer nails on a vertical plane . . . you hammer golfballs on an INCLINED plane . . . same motion . . . rotational motion (turn and roll per Mr. Kelly) is good . . . BUT HORIZONTAL LEFT WRIST MOTION is DEATH . . . this would be defined as BENDING your left wrist . . . we don't do that and have Rhythm . . . you start bending your left wrist and the motion of the clubface becomes erratic . . . low point can be compromised . . . so how do you NOT bend your left wrist . . . . 1. you learn how it works 2. you make a pivot in such away that it doesn't lead to a disruption of your left wrist alignment . . .

scottcuban 03-29-2010 06:01 PM

That was a lot to take in but I believe I understand basically everything you said. It sounds much less complicated than what I have heard (and read) on the TGM. I am confused about something and this may be me putting the cart before the horse, I don't know, but here goes....
I believe I am a hitter as opposed to a swinger. I see what the basic differences are between the two, but obviously have much to learn. Isn't the hitter basically going at the ball on the right forearm plane? I can feel very powerful thrusting the right forearm (and heel of the right hand) at the ball and through the ball. How does this affect the grip? Do I need a strong left (lead) hand grip with the right palm's heel inline with the plane line? How does the club then get on the left arm plane? What am I missing here?
Again, I apologize if I am getting ahead of myself and focusing incorrectly here. I am just trying to get a little better with what has been driving me nuts so far. I have been playing for a while and read and studied much and have had some degree of success (15 hcp) but I want to get to the next level and be more consistent.
Thank you again for your patience and time.

12 piece bucket 03-29-2010 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71704)
That was a lot to take in but I believe I understand basically everything you said. It sounds much less complicated than what I have heard (and read) on the TGM. I am confused about something and this may be me putting the cart before the horse, I don't know, but here goes....
I believe I am a hitter as opposed to a swinger. I see what the basic differences are between the two, but obviously have much to learn. Isn't the hitter basically going at the ball on the right forearm plane? I can feel very powerful thrusting the right forearm (and heel of the right hand) at the ball and through the ball. How does this affect the grip? Do I need a strong left (lead) hand grip with the right palm's heel inline with the plane line? How does the club then get on the left arm plane? What am I missing here?
Again, I apologize if I am getting ahead of myself and focusing incorrectly here. I am just trying to get a little better with what has been driving me nuts so far. I have been playing for a while and read and studied much and have had some degree of success (15 hcp) but I want to get to the next level and be more consistent.
Thank you again for your patience and time.

I'd say without having a look it's kinda hard to say . . . but essentially the geometry is the same for hitting and swinging . . . the loading is different . . . but again that's really get ahead of the game without seeing what you got going on . . . at the end of the day Mr. Kelley said swinging is pulling and hitting is pushing. I'd wait awhile before I went too far down that road too early. Time for milk at this point not red meat.

As a 15 you should figure out what your tendencies are . . .where is your ball striking lacking?

Do you hit the ball fat? Do you hit big curves? Which way does it curve?

See if you can put your swing up . . . you'll get plenty of help. Forget about hitting/swinging at this point . . . you need to get a baseline on what's happening now . . . then you can work on implementation.

Put some video up . . . nobody will make you look bad.

slicer mcgolf 03-30-2010 09:19 PM

Bucket - that was great. Great way to present it.

scottcuban 03-30-2010 10:22 PM

Thank you both for the input.
12 piece, I have been spending much time here reading and watching those vids you guys suggested. If I can get access to a camera I will try and film a swing to post. I guess that would be a good place to start to see if I am actually getting it. Thanks

12 piece bucket 03-31-2010 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71716)
Thank you both for the input.
12 piece, I have been spending much time here reading and watching those vids you guys suggested. If I can get access to a camera I will try and film a swing to post. I guess that would be a good place to start to see if I am actually getting it. Thanks

cool . . . forget about "getting it" at this point . . . just get a baseline first of what you ACTUALLY DO . . . it may not be wrong.

where you from? maybe somebody is local that could help out . .

scottcuban 04-01-2010 10:58 AM

I'm in Cental NJ. I see a few teaching pros names that seem to have some TGM background, but I understand it can vary greatly. I am looking to keep it in line with LBG and what is taught here. It seems to be a productive path. (or at least I hope so)I am considering purchasing the Brian Gay video, but I am not sure if I am better off spending the money on the maybe "the address routine" or just ordering the "Alignment Golf" DVDs?

KevCarter 04-01-2010 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71720)
I'm in Cental NJ. I see a few teaching pros names that seem to have some TGM background, but I understand it can vary greatly. I am looking to keep it in line with LBG and what is taught here. It seems to be a productive path. (or at least I hope so)I am considering purchasing the Brian Gay video, but I am not sure if I am better off spending the money on the maybe "the address routine" or just ordering the "Alignment Golf" DVDs?

Please start with the Alignment Golf DVDs. You will need to learn the terminology and the LBG way before watching the Brian Gay video to get the most out of it.

Kevin

dodger 04-01-2010 01:47 PM

Wow, what a post.

scottcuban 04-01-2010 01:51 PM

excellent, thank you. It's not cheap, but hopefully it will be worth it.

innercityteacher 04-01-2010 03:38 PM

Hi Scott. I am in Philadelphia and just starting with TGM.
 
I have been working with the Alignment dvd's.

1) Flying wedges
2) Taly device
3) Right forearm magic
4) straight plane line
5) 2-d plane that club "leans on through swing"
6) back elbow controlled putting ( I have hit the hole and bounced out at least 20 times this Spring. The precision and power of the putt, even on top-dressed greens with 2" of sand is amazing.)
7) Vertical hinge chips and pitches with my lob wedge everywhere (I make the weddges mechanically, aim the clubface like a howitzer, and, let the distance tell me how long the stroke should be.)
8) Left forearm rotation to the top folowed by a horizontal or angled hinge.
9) When I get confused, I pull up with my right arm and drive my back hip (I am about to start rotating to the hitting position, planting, and horizontal/angle hinging the ball until I punture the cover.)

:super: OOOOOOBABY OOOOBABYOOOOO!

Discounting my last 9 holes at 38 degrees/cold drizzle/top-dressed greens and 30 mph winds with 22 putts for a 50, I have posted a 46, 45, 43,43, and a 42 (which should've been a 39). My club hcp was 21 leaning to 22 at the end of last season.

Anytime you want to play, let me know. I have a reg Saturday 4-some but any Sunday will work.

Patrick


Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71720)
I'm in Cental NJ. I see a few teaching pros names that seem to have some TGM background, but I understand it can vary greatly. I am looking to keep it in line with LBG and what is taught here. It seems to be a productive path. (or at least I hope so)I am considering purchasing the Brian Gay video, but I am not sure if I am better off spending the money on the maybe "the address routine" or just ordering the "Alignment Golf" DVDs?


scottcuban 04-01-2010 05:32 PM

Hey Patrick, thanks for the offer, I usually work Saturdays but I just may take you up on that.
It sounds like you have made some great progress. Impressive numbers there and it sounds like it is only going to get better. It sounds like the "alignment golf" DVD is the way to go. I think I am going to order it today. Are you doing it all on your own or are you seeing an instructor? What about video, are you a proponent of that? I haven't heard too much about it on this forum compared to some of the others I have visited. Before coming here I was considering picking up a cheap video camera for range use.

innercityteacher 04-01-2010 05:53 PM

I was supposed to take a lesson with my Mrs. from a TGM person on Sunday.
 
His name was given on the TGM website, Scott. I tried confirming with him and there's been no response.
:crybaby:

Kevin,OB, and Jerry have have spent many hours writing me, each. I go to the range the next day and try to implement the insights.:salut:

I would speak with them about all questions. You will only get my understanding of their insights but, TGM is effective enough to work even 4th or 5th hand for a person with clear physical limitations.

Like you, I am well acquainted with golfing mistakes. :)

I think video is cool, but the golf ball never lies. Count all your shots. Implement a TGM change, or two, and count them all, again.

Let me know and I'll gladly go out and play and monitor, sometime.

Patrick





Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71726)
Hey Patrick, thanks for the offer, I usually work Saturdays but I just may take you up on that.
It sounds like you have made some great progress. Impressive numbers there and it sounds like it is only going to get better. It sounds like the "alignment golf" DVD is the way to go. I think I am going to order it today. Are you doing it all on your own or are you seeing an instructor? What about video, are you a proponent of that? I haven't heard too much about it on this forum compared to some of the others I have visited. Before coming here I was considering picking up a cheap video camera for range use.


HungryBear 04-01-2010 06:22 PM

Get it today!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71723)
excellent, thank you. It's not cheap, but hopefully it will be worth it.

The Alignment Golf DVD set has been worth their weight in gold for me. LB brings homers teaching to life. You get to see EXACTLY how to develope or improve your swing. I have one of the DVD's in my player all the time. Sometimes I watrch segments, some times I use them for Refference, sometimes I just listen with my wireless headset as I do other things.
Get some dowels, TODAY, get a mirror, get a mop ( a wet towel on a club works as well) This is good teaching.

The Bear

scottcuban 04-01-2010 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 71728)
The Alignment Golf DVD set has been worth their weight in gold for me. LB brings homers teaching to life. You get to see EXACTLY how to develope or improve your swing. I have one of the DVD's in my player all the time. Sometimes I watrch segments, some times I use them for Refference, sometimes I just listen with my wireless headset as I do other things.
Get some dowels, TODAY, get a mirror, get a mop ( a wet towel on a club works as well) This is good teaching.

The Bear

I ordered the Alignment Golf DVD tonight. I hope it comes soon. I am very excited about the prospect of real improvement! Thank you all for the help and direction

Richie3Jack 04-04-2010 12:19 PM

From my experience, reading and understanding the book is very helpful for the student and mandatory for instructors. Even if you don't agree with everything in the book, there's way too much useful information.

The terminology intimidates some. I also think Homer Kelley had a peculiar way of writing, almost comes off like he's writing haikus, and that intimidates people as well. However, that style of writing really appeals to golfers who understand the book eventually. Or at least from the golfers I've talked to.

The greatest thing for me about the book is that it really taught me how to feel and go about learning how to feel in the most effective manner by learning feel from mechanics instead of the other way around and using the basic/acquired/total motion curriculum to do it.

Yep, all that intimidating talk about terminology and such, and IMO the book is at least 50% about the golfer training themselves to feel or the instructor helping the student learn how to fee.

I hear a lot of critics say that 'you'd have to be an MIT physicist to learn that book!'

Hogwash. All it takes is some time, patience and effort.

I'm certainly not a rocket scientist by any stretch and I know other TGM'ers that can't balance their checkbook but have understood TGM.

Time, patience and effort.

I think this Web site is the greatest resource as far as the Web goes. Get the book, make sure to read the book in proper order. If you get stuck, do a search here, look at some videos here. You may also want to try out Peter Croker's 'TGM Downloads' for a good basic overview of concepts. And if you get stuck from there, do some google searches.

The problem I had before TGM was just overall confusion. And instead of trying to figure out what works best for me in my golf swing, I would often start looking at others and say 'well, he does that maybe I should try that.' That would only lead to more problems and more confusion. TGM shows why that works for that particular golfer. And more importantly, it's an IMPACT focused golf instruction system. Not a BACKSWING FOCUSED golf instruction method.

What helped me the most with understanding TGM was grasping who Homer Kelley was. Mr. Kelley was more or less a 'problem solver' at Boeing. I believe he looked at golf and came up with the question of 'how do we solve the problem of learning how to hit a golf effectively.' He then figured out that there were almost countless ways to do so and he created a 'manual' for us to figure out what 'way' works best for us.







3JACK

scottcuban 04-04-2010 03:50 PM

Wow, that was some very high praise and I appreciate your input. I have been told by a few that the book will do nothing for me but tie me up in knots. I am guessing because I am an not an instructor (nor do I want to be) but maybe I was told that because I am just not that bright :-)
The way you made it sound definitely takes some of the intimidation out of it for me. I have also been quietly reading a lot in this forum, going back and trying to get a glimpse of what is here. Some of it has already been surprisingly helpful and some of it is still a bit confusing, but a lot less confusing than I thought it would be.
What you wrote about Hoer Kelley there at the end was also very insightful. I can see how this book, (and overall system) may be very, very different from traditional golf instruction. Teaching "feels" in a dynamic action like the golf swing has to be one of the toughest challenges an instructor can face. I like the fact that it seems TGM can work with almost anything we do in the swing.
On a personal note, I saw your blog and really like the right forearm video.
Thanks,
SC

Richie3Jack 04-04-2010 08:44 PM

The problem with using an approach where you tell the golfer what to feel is that feels are subjective, not objective. I'm not an instructor either and I had people telling me to not bother with the book either.

There's always this great urge for golfers and instructors to treat the golf swing as a very simple subject when it's anything but. It can be undertood and that understanding can be very good thing. My parents always told me that good things come to those who wait and work for it.




3JACK

innercityteacher 04-04-2010 08:47 PM

I've enjoyed your blog, also R3J!
 
Have looked-up several concepts on it and they were well done, imho!

Patrick



Quote:

Originally Posted by Richie3Jack (Post 71758)
The problem with using an approach where you tell the golfer what to feel is that feels are subjective, not objective. I'm not an instructor either and I had people telling me to not bother with the book either.

There's always this great urge for golfers and instructors to treat the golf swing as a very simple subject when it's anything but. It can be undertood and that understanding can be very good thing. My parents always told me that good things come to those who wait and work for it.




3JACK


scottcuban 04-04-2010 10:58 PM

Let me just say that the concept of teaching mechanics so you can find your own "feels" is a brand spanking new approach for me. I agree overall that most of the time, trying to teach a feel is very subjective. I am not saying that it won't work for some, but it hasn't worked so great for me.
There are a few things that I have learned over the years, and 3jack you pointed out one of them. The golf swing is not simple. It is a complex and dynamic action. There are no magic moves to make you "get it" instantly. One man's magic swing thought is another man's disaster.
If I may use baseball as an analogy, I always heard how Joe Dimaggio would glide around the cavernous centerfield in Yankee Stadium and gracefully get to the ball with an effortless approach. However, I am pretty sure it certainly was not as effortless as it looked and I'm sure Joe D was busting his butt. It just didn't look like he was. The man was a gifted athlete. When Fred Couples or Ernie Els hit the driver, in what looks like slow motion, the ball goes 300 yards effortlessly. Physics tells us there must be some effort and power to hit the ball that far, but these guys are so graceful and athletic that it doesn't seem like it.
Well, I am not Joe D, Freddie or Ernie. I have average athletic ability and would like to make the most out of it. The mechanical and analytical approach seems up my alley. I am more of a thinker and someone who wants to know the "whys" which I believe will help me figure out the "hows". I think most golf teaching pros can't really tell you what they are doing mechanically because they don't really know. They too, are gifted athletes and can only teach you what they feel they are doing. At least that has been my experience with teaching pros. From what I have seen and heard, I believe the TGM approach is unique and goes against what I have seen in the past. At least I hope it is. From what I have read, Homer Kelley was a scientist and a great thinker and problem solver. I don't know that he was a gifted athlete, but I do know that he was very intelligent and very analytical.
From what I have read and seen on video of Yoda, I am extremely excited to receive my Alignment Golf DVD and learn from a man who seems to "get" what Homer Kelley wrote about.

KevCarter 04-05-2010 08:30 AM

Scott,

You are a fast learner. There is nothing like TGM. You will quickly learn that there are 3 Imperatives, 3 things I focus on in EVERY lesson, 3 Essentials, almost as important as the Imperatives but not 100% mandatory. After that its wide open. No right, wrong or best. Whatever makes you enjoy golf is what you should do...

A great instructor of TGM will help guide you through the process, not try to mold you into an ideal.

Lynn Blake and ALL teachers have their ideas of what might be the Holy Grail, based upon what they have learned from Homer Kelley, and they pass those ideas to those lucky enough to have found them. We all find our own Holy Grail but at the same time are careful not to put our favorite pieces into the wrong puzzle.

My ideal is Lynn's swing. Very simple and very easy to repeat. Plus we have a great resource for learning it. I was lucky enough to watch the Master teach for a day, he was happy to share his ideals with me as he could see they fit, but every other lesson he gave consisted of something totally different, no two the same. Swinging, Hitting, Pivot, Educated Hands, it depended upon the student.

Learning TGM takes time and patience, but like Richie said, it can be done, and you will be glad you did. We all read your post about ordering Alignment Golf, and we sit back and nod our heads knowingly. You are now on the fast track to getting it and that makes us all happy.

Kevin



Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71760)
Let me just say that the concept of teaching mechanics so you can find your own "feels" is a brand spanking new approach for me. I agree overall that most of the time, trying to teach a feel is very subjective. I am not saying that it won't work for some, but it hasn't worked so great for me.
There are a few things that I have learned over the years, and 3jack you pointed out one of them. The golf swing is not simple. It is a complex and dynamic action. There are no magic moves to make you "get it" instantly. One man's magic swing thought is another man's disaster.
If I may use baseball as an analogy, I always heard how Joe Dimaggio would glide around the cavernous centerfield in Yankee Stadium and gracefully get to the ball with an effortless approach. However, I am pretty sure it certainly was not as effortless as it looked and I'm sure Joe D was busting his butt. It just didn't look like he was. The man was a gifted athlete. When Fred Couples or Ernie Els hit the driver, in what looks like slow motion, the ball goes 300 yards effortlessly. Physics tells us there must be some effort and power to hit the ball that far, but these guys are so graceful and athletic that it doesn't seem like it.
Well, I am not Joe D, Freddie or Ernie. I have average athletic ability and would like to make the most out of it. The mechanical and analytical approach seems up my alley. I am more of a thinker and someone who wants to know the "whys" which I believe will help me figure out the "hows". I think most golf teaching pros can't really tell you what they are doing mechanically because they don't really know. They too, are gifted athletes and can only teach you what they feel they are doing. At least that has been my experience with teaching pros. From what I have seen and heard, I believe the TGM approach is unique and goes against what I have seen in the past. At least I hope it is. From what I have read, Homer Kelley was a scientist and a great thinker and problem solver. I don't know that he was a gifted athlete, but I do know that he was very intelligent and very analytical.
From what I have read and seen on video of Yoda, I am extremely excited to receive my Alignment Golf DVD and learn from a man who seems to "get" what Homer Kelley wrote about.


12 piece bucket 04-05-2010 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71760)
Let me just say that the concept of teaching mechanics so you can find your own "feels" is a brand spanking new approach for me. I agree overall that most of the time, trying to teach a feel is very subjective. I am not saying that it won't work for some, but it hasn't worked so great for me.
There are a few things that I have learned over the years, and 3jack you pointed out one of them. The golf swing is not simple. It is a complex and dynamic action. There are no magic moves to make you "get it" instantly. One man's magic swing thought is another man's disaster.
If I may use baseball as an analogy, I always heard how Joe Dimaggio would glide around the cavernous centerfield in Yankee Stadium and gracefully get to the ball with an effortless approach. However, I am pretty sure it certainly was not as effortless as it looked and I'm sure Joe D was busting his butt. It just didn't look like he was. The man was a gifted athlete. When Fred Couples or Ernie Els hit the driver, in what looks like slow motion, the ball goes 300 yards effortlessly. Physics tells us there must be some effort and power to hit the ball that far, but these guys are so graceful and athletic that it doesn't seem like it.
Well, I am not Joe D, Freddie or Ernie. I have average athletic ability and would like to make the most out of it. The mechanical and analytical approach seems up my alley. I am more of a thinker and someone who wants to know the "whys" which I believe will help me figure out the "hows". I think most golf teaching pros can't really tell you what they are doing mechanically because they don't really know. They too, are gifted athletes and can only teach you what they feel they are doing. At least that has been my experience with teaching pros. From what I have seen and heard, I believe the TGM approach is unique and goes against what I have seen in the past. At least I hope it is. From what I have read, Homer Kelley was a scientist and a great thinker and problem solver. I don't know that he was a gifted athlete, but I do know that he was very intelligent and very analytical.
From what I have read and seen on video of Yoda, I am extremely excited to receive my Alignment Golf DVD and learn from a man who seems to "get" what Homer Kelley wrote about.

Gotta be somewhat careful here . . . there's learning the book to learn the book . . . and then there's APPLYING THE BOOK . . . you can get on some snipe hunts in the book. The alignment golf video would be a GREAT place to start as far as getting the concepts correct for sure. But some of the concepts are fundamental others are certainly great but may not be applicable to YOUR machine . . . so be careful that you pick the right pieces. I actually got immersed in "learning the book" and it didn't necessarily translate into better scores. I think ultimately it has and will and I wouldn't trade what I know for anything . . . . however . . . probably wasn't the quickest way to go about getting better. You sound like a dude that wants to learn "it" . . but you gotta figure out what "it" is first.

You should find someone competent in your area or put a swing up here or send one to someone on the site in private if you'd like.

You need to get really up to snuff on a few concepts . . . and then start applying them . . .

1. Face and path relationships are a number uno important . . . line of compression
2. Rhythm . . . hinging . . . clubface control
3. Wedges
4. Low point control . . . down out and forward impact
5. Plane line control . . . Plane angle control
6. Centered pivot

Number 1 here to me IS NUMBER ONE . . . the rest will take their respective order of importance based on what's lacking in your motion. So get a video and send it to somebody/put it up or go see somebody that is well versed in person.

KevCarter 04-05-2010 09:57 AM

I keep learning "stuff" from EVERY post Bucket makes.

In particular, I needed that wake up call about applying the pieces and not just learning the book for the sake of it.

Thanks 12 Piece, you have been, and always will be a fantastic resource of knowledge and application for us all!!!

Kevin

scottcuban 04-05-2010 01:42 PM

I think I understand what you are saying 12 piece, I will heed the advice. I am hoping to borrow a camera and get some video sooner or later. I have been a decent player but could never get the consistency to break 90 every time out. I have shot a few low scores with a career low of 79 once when everything clicked. I am just as capable of shooting 95 too. I need to get to the level of consistency to steadily keep the scores in the 80s. Once I get there, my focus will shift into breaking 80 and then consistently breaking 80.
I just hope it is possible. I certainly hope it is and believe this may be the way.
Again, thank you all for the direction, advice and words of encouragement.

O.B.Left 04-05-2010 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 71764)
You need to get really up to snuff on a few concepts . . . and then start applying them . . .

1. Face and path relationships are a number uno important . . . line of compression
2. Rhythm . . . hinging . . . clubface control
3. Wedges
4. Low point control . . . down out and forward impact
5. Plane line control . . . Plane angle control
6. Centered pivot

Number 1 here to me IS NUMBER ONE . . . the rest will take their respective order of importance based on what's lacking in your motion. So get a video and send it to somebody/put it up or go see somebody that is well versed in person.

I totally agree. Number 1 , line of compression is required reading to my mind. See 2-C-0 , check out the diagrams and look at where the Arc or Angle of Approach points. It isnt an illusion its very real given the inclined plane of motion. As you go down you must be going out. The inside out approach for a straight away shot. The ball wants to be hit this way, on the inside aft with a Horizontal Hinge Action. Read it and read it and read it till you understand it and save yourself from the ravages of Steering. The ill conceived notion of hitting the back of the ball with a square clubface. Sure seems like it should work, but it doesnt. Hit the ball with the clubhead on the way Down and Out. Take the ball Down and Out with a Horizontal Hinge Action.

If I may Id like to add the #3 Pressure Point to Buck's list. Lag, golfs secret.

scottcuban 04-05-2010 08:35 PM

O.B. I don't even have the book yet BUT I think I see what you are saying about down and out as opposed to hitting the back of the ball with a square club face. I can not say that I know how to do it right now, but I am sure willing to learn.
I am a brand newbie here, but I am very excited to dive in to this.

EdZ 04-06-2010 11:07 AM

As far as starting points, Bucket's list is a great place to be. That said, one of the very key parts of learning TGM is to understand how important the hands are.

Learn to monitor where your hands are. Learn to feel that #3 pressure point.

No matter what the rest of the body does, ultimately it is the pressure points (hands) and their relationship to the plane line.

Learning to control the 3 parts of the club.

Clubface (left wrist)
Clubshaft (right forearm)
Clubhead (#3 pressure point)

For me personally, nothing else mattered until I learned to control the left wrist. I had grown up with a pretty pure swinging motion, so CF took care of the clubshaft and clubhead for the most part - but the clubface - the left wrist, needed to be educated.

To learn the pressure points, start with one hand only putts. Learn to feel the #3 pressure point with right hand only putts, and the #2 pressure point with left hand only putts.

You can hear the difference in your impact when you get it right, even with the putter.

O.B.Left 04-07-2010 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 71777)
O.B. I don't even have the book yet BUT I think I see what you are saying about down and out as opposed to hitting the back of the ball with a square club face. I can not say that I know how to do it right now, but I am sure willing to learn.
I am a brand newbie here, but I am very excited to dive in to this.


It might feel like a cross line stroke out to right field first but it probably isnt. Your divots can guide you.

Think of the inclined plane from a down the line point of view. For any ball positioned before low point, the clubhead will strike it on the way down, right? But on the inclined plane to go down is to go out as well. The delivery path of the clubhead is going down and out prior to low point then up and in post low point. An attempt to hit a ball back of low point with a delivery path of the clubhead that goes straight towards the hole is "Steering" and ruins the clubs orbit. Contrary to popular opinion the path of the clubhead does not dictate the balls initial line of flight. An inside out approach path associated with a square plane line will not create a push. The ball leaves at right angles to the face at separation. Which also means that at contact it needs to be open slightly. Combine the inside out approach with the slightly open but rolling to square by separation clubface and you have a straight divot , a straight shot , total compression. This is Hogan's "inside aft" of the ball.

Try it out. Let your divots guide you. Keep trying to swing down and out until your divots straighten out. Cut shot therapy as Homer called it. A straight divot and a pushed shot indicates an open clubface. The need to work on Hinge Action or take a look at your grip. Most people , given an incorrect understanding of the cause and effect, correct a push with by pulling the clubhead path to the left. A two wrongs kinda deal. Fix the clubhead path first then the face as needed. The ball leaves at right angle to the face at separation and curves according to any divergence between the clubhead path and clubface angle.

scottcuban 04-13-2010 09:13 PM

I am watching my "Alignment Golf" DVDs for the second night in a row (and about the 4th time overall). I am fixated in the "Drills" disc. It is unreal how much I am learning the more I watch it. Each time I pick up new information. It is too comprehensive to get the first or second time watching.

This is great stuff. Thank you all for the direction and help

JerryG 04-13-2010 09:33 PM

Now get the Yellow Book. Just as was stated here earlier, it is not the most difficult thing to read. The chases are interesting and be sure to follow them once in awhile. I think those types of efforts are assisting in my personal understanding.
Keep the book near. I usually have it in the car. If I stop for an oil change, I read a couple pages and look stupid trying to get the feels in the lobby. I coach JV high school golf so while the kids are playing and I am out on the course, I will usually open it and just start reading.
After your first read, be sure to do it in the prescriptive order, then do little tidbits at a time. Small chews are much more nourishing and satisfying than chomping on the whole hog.

scottcuban 04-13-2010 11:53 PM

Thanks jerry,
I went and bought some 4' long, 5/8" dowels today. I have been drilling all night long watching the DVDs. I was having a difficult time CONSISTENTLY finding the correct right arm action. Sometimes it was perfect and a sometimes it was way off. Finding impact in the basic motion consistently was helping but I found something wonderful tonight...The Preliminary Address Drill. This is like the Rosetta Stone of getting set up. I can automatically feel the correct set up position consistently when doing that. I have been chipping all over the living room. When I do it using that set up, everything falls into place. It is amazing. I hope to continue with the steady improvement.

I am ordering the book tomorrow. I am still a little intimidated, but I have this great forum to seek answers to questions or to talk me off the ledge :-).

KevCarter 04-14-2010 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottcuban (Post 72011)
Thanks jerry,
I went and bought some 4' long, 5/8" dowels today. I have been drilling all night long watching the DVDs. I was having a difficult time CONSISTENTLY finding the correct right arm action. Sometimes it was perfect and a sometimes it was way off. Finding impact in the basic motion consistently was helping but I found something wonderful tonight...The Preliminary Address Drill. This is like the Rosetta Stone of getting set up. I can automatically feel the correct set up position consistently when doing that. I have been chipping all over the living room. When I do it using that set up, everything falls into place. It is amazing. I hope to continue with the steady improvement.

I am ordering the book tomorrow. I am still a little intimidated, but I have this great forum to seek answers to questions or to talk me off the ledge :-).

Scott,

You are now goofy, just like the rest of us...

Congratulations and welcome to the club. This is not a quick fix, It's G.O.L.F. for the rest of your life!
:golf:
Kevin


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