all types of lag
 

Accumulator lag, pivot lag, shaft lag, lag pressure...

What are the differences and how can you identify them in pictures or video?

There is more than that even, check out 6-M-1 The Downstroke Sequence. Feet, Knees, Hips, Shoulders......................each component Lagging and Dragging.

Lag in all its forms. Like Hogan said its a "chain reaction" or did he say "chain action"? You can see them on video for sure, but feeling them is what its all about for the player especially at the #3 pp in the first joint of the right forefinger and/or knuckle. If there is a hierarchy of Lag that is the King Lag. After thats gone, if you havent hit the ball yet, only bad things happen. Your hands are in Homers words "chasing the club". I can feel that. How a 15 handicap, retired guy figured it all out Ill never understand.

The kinetic chain would simply be a lagging of sorts, so I see your point that it involves many components from the ground up.

For accumulator lag, to be specific... what is this and how can we see it?

Slicer,

I don't think I'm going to nail this, but perhaps move us in the proper direction?

In my opinion, what OB described is pivot lag, or the kinematic sequence which is what 6-M-1 means to me.

Accumulator lag is angles. A visual would be the angle between left wrist and shaft created when employing the #2 accumulator. You can see Accumulator lag. I think many confuse accumulator lag with a late or "snap" release.

Clubhead lag is pressure. #3 Pressure point would be a great thing to monitor for clubhead lag, that's why the PBS is so popular. You can't see clubhead lag. One of my favorite quotes from YODA came from Alignment Golf:

THE SECRET OF GOLF IS NOT A POSITION IT’S A PRESSURE!

My thoughts, if incorrect I'm looking forward to learning the proper definitions.

Kevin

Thanks Kev,

Can we have too much accumulator lag?

I think this may have an effect on holding body positions (or centers). For players that I have seen with a very acute #2 angle, the head seems to dip down and back through impact... almost to back out of it to release the angles.

I think you can have too much Slicer. I'm not sure you can have too much #2, but you can sure start releasing it too late and maintain it too long.

One example that comes to mind would be #1. You don't want to take that past 90° or you lose the ability to employ extensor action. That may be a separate issue?

Kevin

I'm thinking more of the player who floats is at the top and from face on there is very little space between the shaft and the shoulder.

The player needs great hands to get it back from there, like Sergio. I would certainly be careful with a student that he can recover from a lot of accumulator lag. I think I remember someone saying that Sergio type lag is great for distance, not so great for accuracy, but Sergio is a wonderful driver of the ball... so, it must depend... :) I believe these "snap" type release procedures to be geared more towards very accomplished players.

Kevin

Yes sorry Slice, I took you in a direction that you didnt need to go. The Lag and Drag of the Pivot Train 6-M-1 is a different consideration than that of power generation from the Accumulators. See 6-B for more on that. The Pivot Trains release of Lag is associated with a loss of power and therefor has no Release Point. Sort of like pp#3 in that way. The Accumulators however must be released to generate Power, their Release Point is necessary and of critical importance.

I remember Sean Foley saying that 90 degrees was max for #2 angle. That anything more was counter productive. You must have a student with one heck of a float load. In terms of TGM I can only think of the Endless Belt Analogy and its implications to the Release Point. The later the more power, basically for any given hand speed.

Didnt Ben Doyle say something like "having too much Lag is like having too much Love". I can see how it could be a problem though. Its an interesting question.

OK Ive been thinking about this a little. Couple of things first. Lag in a common golf speak sense is what we TGM types would describe as float loading but with a degrees of left wrist cock perspective attached. Whereas, Like Kev alluded to, Homers Accumulator Lag refers primarily to Lag Pressure at the #3pp which cant be measured visually really, beyond noting the trailing condition of the clubhead. Perhaps if you had a sensor at the #3 measuring the pound per square inch or something.

Accumulator Lag is discussed in 7-19 Lag Loading, where amongst other things Homer says; "Properly manipulated, Clubhead Inertia can withstand all the Lag Pressure anyone can generate."

In terms of degrees of #2, left wrist cock, absent any mechanical arguments against exceeding 90 degrees, Im thinking that you should let the conditions of Release and Impact be your guide. In other words play around with his float loading (Lag Loading) to discover what gets him to his best Release Point. Test it on a launch monitor maybe after you think you got it figured out.

And in this regard Homer does mention degrees of Left Wrist Cock in a way. See 6-N-0, Its a great read but basically the "short quick Arc of Maximum Delay", Snap Release, Maximum Power, is measured in degrees.

"This involves Angular Speed which is measured by the number of degrees of an Arc through which the motion moves per second"

The "per second" part alluding to the Release Point, Travel Time. An earlier Release Point increases the travel time for any given number of degrees to the Arc, with an accompanying loss of power for any given Hand speed. Homer says that doubling the travel time (earlier release) halves the travel rate. To me suggesting that the important thing is not what your guy is doing at Top or in Startdown but what he is doing at Release, so let that be your guide.

Slice, I bet YodasLuke, aka Ted Fort would be the guy to talk on this sort of stuff. Its right in his wheel house.

Regards
Ob

It Happens Sometimes
 

Thanks, Kev.

I kinda liked that one myself!

:grin:

In regard to this tendency, Slice, you could look at it as being a subconscious move of the left shoulder (low point) backwards giving them more time to square it up, release. As if they need more time in the "degrees per second" equation of 6-N-0.

The other ways to increase the time would be to change the Release Point, slow down the hand speed or move the ball forward if its a driver. Or simply decrease the degrees, #2 Angle.

Interesting question. Wish I had that problem.

There can be a similar sort of tendency where guys back out of a driver to achieve a higher launch angle. They move their low point back, dynamically during the swing. For those guys if they want to stay centered, the solution is to move the ball forward in the stance.

Homer wanted a centered pivot of course but he also included the proviso "except for special purposes". I think he's talking launch angle and power maybe. Lynn would know. He did tell me once that the driver can (at times) be considered a specialty club, in that you're trying to get it as far down there as you can, with an accepted loss in accuracy. But this is for another thread maybe. You certainly wouldnt want to back out of an iron shot from the fairway with all the money on the line.

O.B. - Take it easy with the egg nog!:naughty:

Lag in a common golf speak sense is what we TGM types would describe as float loading but with a degrees of left wrist cock perspective attached.
Lag is the act of trailing. Float loading is one of three methods used as a loading technique - that's separate from the defintion of lag.

Like Kev alluded to, Homers Accumulator Lag refers primarily to Lag Pressure at the #3pp which cant be measured visually really, beyond noting the trailing condition of the clubhead.

Accumulator lag isn't well defined in the golfing machine but I would at least think it is how much the accumulator is out of line - whether it be #1, #2, #3 or #4 i.e. how much the accumulator is trailing an in-line condition. It certainly has it's relationship to lag pressure - but I wouldn't say it primarily refers to Lag Pressure.
6-C Quote: "Accumulator Lag (7-19) and/or Thrust (7-11) determine the amount of Power generated by the Power Package – Zone #2 (9-2)." And from 6-B-0: "Varying the amount of out-of-line and/or the amount of muscular effort will vary the accumulation of Power that can be Released ...."


In terms of degrees of #2, left wrist cock, absent any mechanical arguments against exceeding 90 degrees, Im thinking that you should let the conditions of Release and Impact be your guide.
From a level condition- the most "cocking" you can get is 30 degrees. From an anatomical defintion - 20 degrees.



When it's four degrees out! - there's time for some forum posting!

Mike

Did you read the entire thread to get the context of what I said?

While there is no dictionary of common golf speak, if there was I doubt "lag" would be anything like the tgm version you shared.

Your thing about left hand wrist cock is interesting. I know what you mean I think but how do you explain the far more accute angle that we can see? Sure looks like more than twenty or thirty degrees. But I defer to you Mike. You've seen a lot of cock in your day.

Bucket's doesn't count.

No I didn't read the entire thread.:( (You can't become a Masta Threadjacka if you read the entire thread!!!)

The "far more acute angle " as seen from face on (when the player is at the top of the swing)is the #3 accumulator angle. It's always been there, however the player has essentially turned the #3 accumulator angle so that you see it from your face on perspective - plus any wristcock. At address, the person viewing the golfer from "face on", doesn't see any #3 accumulator (although they would if they were looking down the target line). It creates an illusion that there is more movement (wristcock) than there really is. (1-C)

Another way to think of it is from the down the target line perspective- say the player you are watching has 60 degrees of angle between the shaft and the left arm (#3 Accumulator) and then you see them "at address" just cock their wrist another 30 degrees- you would then see the "90 degrees" between the left arm and the shaft.

The illusion is also in play on the down swing from say hands hip high to impact - it appears that you "release" alot more than you really do- because your mind assumes that the loss of the visual angle from the perspective of the face on view isn't really the release of everything - it's the #3 accumulator angle "disappearing from that perspective.

So in summary - it's VERY important to understand the context of your subject and the perspective that you are viewing it from :redface: :oops: (That's for me- not reading the entire thread :) )

HaHa.

Thanks for droppin in and rappin TGM oldsckool, Jacka. Wish you did it mo often.

Grand Masta Threadjacka's in the house. Give it up. Do you know where your thread is?

I remain threadless - jumping in randomly - switching the patterns - otherwise Bucket hones in on my rap/ whereabouts and then trouble starts - jab and dance - jab and dance- keep moving.&B

Threadless in Seatle?

"Jumping in randomly". Dude you're jumpin around like Spider Man.

Grand Masta Jacka, and dont pretend youve already left here cause I see you, why dont you Rap Tgm very often? I'm lovin you're "Goat Buster", Who ya gonna call , threads but.............you're from Homers hood, you've been acknowledged by the Gummer (not 12P, Scott) . You got serious cred, What up?

Wristcock, Illusions and Power
 

Right you are, Mike O.

With the club under the heel of the left hand and the wrist held Level with the left forearm, an angle is created between the left arm and clubshaft. This is not Wristcock with its obvious out-of-line condition of left arm and clubshaft. Instead, it is merely one in-line condition (the left arm and in-line Level wrist) meeting another in-line condition (the Clubshaft).

This alignment is important because, when the Uncocking Left Wrist (Perpendicular Motion) is followed into Impact by the Swiveling Left Hand (Rotational Motion), the result is Transfer Power (from the Left Wrist to the Left Hand).

Watching a PGA TOUR player executing a short chip or pitch shot can be instructive. Is he cocking his left wrist on the Backstroke . . . or is he merely maintaining its Level address alignment? The Master can execute his Stroke with or without Wristcock. Further, he understands and can control the significant Power implications.

Here's Brian Gay at this year's PGA Championship at Hazeltine. His Level left wrist is the key to his amazing distance control.

:golfcart2:

Here is a pretty cool down the line video of Rory Mclroy releasing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3iuhfJaEI

Yoda would a Master golfer use left wrist cock and its Delayed Release to increase the Angle of Attack at times for those little shots?

Say for a little chip from longish rough for example? In an effort to get less grass between the face and ball. A slight sacrifice in Distance Control for improved Impact conditions.

Grand Masta Jacka's gone G. But not before he spun this thread off topic and outta control.

Who knows where he'll jump in next.

Watch out, here comes the Jacka man!

But lets try to get him back. Rory's #3 at impact is no where near Jackas (hey if i added one more "s" to that what do you got? Say it again.) 60 degree thing. Jacka made a good point , for a change, but he might have been diminishing the #2 angle's contribution to Fully Cocked for the ego/optics of his own assertion. He's kind of flamboyant with the truth sometimes. All those super hero types are when you get to know them a little.

Come back Jack, JACKA.........!

Ok - the Jackas. approach gives you street cred - aka a good chuckle - so I'm back. Original post stands, that is anatomically with the left wrist flat you max the radial deviation/ abduction/ wrist cock at 20 degrees. If you feel like that doesn't complete the forumula of A-Accumulator#3 +B)Wristcock = C) top of the swing angle between left arm and clubshaft - then you need D) left wrist extension i.e. bend, which will provide added "angle". That assumes you are moving into more of a bend than where you measured the #3 to begin with i.e. address. Lee Trevino vs John Daly Happy now Jacko!

I know you want to add a couple of "f's" to what you just called me but thanks for coming back, Jacka.

I hear ya, makes sense, it just seems like 60 degrees of #3 is a lot isnt it for a Level left wrist at address. Let me think on it, wheres my compass and protractor?

Respekt.

I used 60 degrees of accumulator #3 as an easy way to get to 90 degrees given the addition of wristcock. Let's make sure we are on the right track here- I'm not saying anyone was at 60 degrees nor did I measure if anyone was at 90 degrees- it was all in the discussion of 90 degrees of wristcock or 20 degrees of wristcock? I've clarified why it's not 90 degrees of wristcock- due to whatever amount of #3 one has. And as the wrist moves through bending and arching- it doesn't stay in-line with the forearm so therefore it also affects the clubshaft relationship to the forearm/arm. I'm just discussing the general idea - not worried about any particular degrees.

OK Jacka Ill cut you some slack on the 60 degrees Jack. (do i sound like a total dufus here or what? Huggy Bear or like Mrs Cleaver in Airplane?)

Thanks Mike but in all seriousness you're now getting into my most serious mind bender issue with TGM........how can you cock and uncock upon the Inclined Plane when the left arm isnt on the Inclined Plane and maintain the LAFW, the vertical plane of the Left Hand Wrist Cock? Ah maybe I didnt say that quite right?

If one were to have a flat left wrist - the wrist istself wouldn't cock and uncock on plane- because as you mentioned the left arm/shoulder (normally)isn't on-plane. And your problem is?

My fog surrounds the plane of the left hand wrist cock. Left Arm or Inclined Plane? It cant be both if the left arm isnt on the inclined plane. I want it on the Inclined Plane, but then what of the LAFW?

I get that if you turn your left hand to the plane with a little bending, the cocking and uncocking is on the plane but then you've added some Horizontal Left Hand Motion havent you? I thought that was a no,no?

Are you saying its grip type dependent? Did you mean "Flat" as weak or geometrically flat?

The Plot Thickens. Cocking and Uncocking are always on the Plane of the LAFW and when the shaft is parallel to the ground it is also parallel to the baseline of the inclined plane. All performed with a Flat Left wrist. Under specific conditions all 3 of the above exist throughout the swing.

OOOH! This is getting good- Daryl's showing up.

LAFW - Level, A?, Flat Wrist

Guys, aside from putting the Inclined Plane on the Plane of the Left Arm, the so called and probably theoretical Left Shoulder Plane which requires a Zeroed #3 Angle, how do we resolve this head scratcher or mine? Bending and Arching? To a grip type dependent extent? I gotta know.

MIke when you said, "A" , was that a disgusting and totally uncalled for insult to all of Canada? Back off you Hoser.

TSP and RFT. The geometry is set at the end of the RFT (illustration on right). The shoulder turn changes the location of the Levers (Hands and club), not the Geometry.

Thanks D, nice drawings there too , eh.

But I dont see the Left Shoulder Plane if that what that is, out in the field too often. Sort of like a mouse with antlers, I can imagine it but I dont see it too often unless maybe Im really hittin the Molson hard, eh. Hey, there was this one time...............a crap, that Jacka did it to me again Damn.

First Burley gets me when he photoshopped his book into the Tiger crash site, then Jacka gets me "all out o wacka" on one of Slices threads, Damn. He's got us spin'n jacks off of jacka's jacks, Jack, crap.

Im thinking there is a little bend to get the plane of the left wrist cock and the left hand onto the Inclined Plane (a usable one, TSP or whatever). Perhaps this little bend is a product of a pure vertical left hand wrist cock, perhaps not. Hogan added a touch of bend didnt he?

What the heck were we talkin about again, eh?

So Daryl for the uneducated TGM student...picture left shows a shift from the elbow plane to the turned shoulder plane....picture right shows zero shift to the shoulder plane?

One of my favorites from Daryl.

Pivot controlled hands :naughty:
vs.
Hands controlled pivot with extensor action takeaway :salut:

Kevin

OB,

1) I was serious when I asked what "A" was - as I'm not sure and didn't want to guess- and I wanted to make sure we started on the right track and didn't want to back track.
2) I've answered this before - but let's first make sure that we communicate your question clearly. You can't understand how a flat left wrist uncocking when the flat left wrist is not on plane- can create an on plane motion or said a different way - how the uncocking of an off-plane motion of the left wrist wouldn't create an off plane motion? Please confirm if I have the question correct before I answer it.
3) I had a good post for Daryl- but at the last second retracted it- Darn it! How boring!

Somebody's obviously run out of peanut butter and Pond's.

This thread has now attraced OB, Daryl, Bucket, KevCarter, gmb- I think that's a drug - run for you life! Hide your kids!

Thanks Mike.

Ill take number 2 for $100 LBG dollars please.

"Given that the Plane of LAFW is the Plane of the Left Wrist Cock and given that all Left Hand Motion is Perpendicular only (except for Double Cocking maybe?), how can the Left Wrist, cock and uncock along the Inclined Plane when the Left Arm is not itself on the Inclined Plane? "

Im thinking there are some considerations for grip type since the Plane of LAFW is said to run along the back of the left hand. But my head hurts.

OK - Good, Bad and Ugly.

Good: You clarified your question.

Bad: you complicated it by bringing in a few variables- but that's OK.

Ugly- I'm not moving forward until you label LAFW - as I was serious, serious, serious that I don't understand what it stands for. And I don't do LBG for $100 until you do Bucket for $50.