PLEASE! How/Why does this ridiculous swing work!!
 

Ted Fort's famous reverse pivot swing has me very intrigued and confused!

Clearly Mr Fort clearly has an amazing level of talent, his 'normal' swing is superb but, I'm kind of confused as to why this wonderful 'joke' swing actually works!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcNc24A7xxk

Any insight, opinion, thoughts on this would be most welcome.

My own golf swing is sadly not very good at all, I'm a habitual and horrible flipper, in fact, after many many years of trying to learn how hit it properly, I have to admit I'm near the point of giving the game up... :(

Anyway, I'm still morbidly curious I guess... Of course I realize he's just having fun, but HOW does Mr Fort do this and achieve what looks like a great impact position! He seems not only to be doing the wrong thing with his lower body but the opposite of what is correct! I.e. I believed the pivot, the movement of the hips and the correct sequencing of all these components were crucial to a good stroke. His upper body, shoulders, hands, arms etc. look great, he achieves great lag and a quality impact that I could only dream about, and yet, when you consider what he's doing with his lower body I just wonder HOW does he do it!

Great site guys, thanks for any replys and if anyone want to take any time to check out my swing and wants to give me feedback that'd be great.

me...
front as a righty... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwIe101jZtY
DTL as my normal lefty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brLYSv8YLhM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBSkbLw7Zzg
second DTL shot is after a lesson, aiming better but even though this angle doesn't show it i'm still the Mayor of Flip city!


Cheers

Rob Murf UK

p.s. I used to be good at some stuff, so I'll swap you for lessons on how to drive faster if you want!:laughing1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNy3fxmzp2U

Handyman
 

Edumacated mittens!

You said it, flip city. You're bending your left wrist through impact. So dont do that and you're fixed.

By allowing the clubhead to overtake your hands later in your swing and via a flat and rolling left wrist instead of bending one will see you return to form. Quickly.

I'm not exactly a prolific poster but I'm a long time lurker, so for sure I've read about 'educated hands', 'hand controlled pivot' etc. but I suppose I've never really understood what they mean!

I guess it's obvious, i.e. if you get your hands to do the correct thing everything else will follow? Or, if you're as good as Mr. Fort, not follow, however you choose.

So the proof, that the hands control it all, is this reverse pivot swing I guess? Also, maybe those guys I've seen hitting great shots whilst kneeling down or even one guy whilst kneeling on one of those big excercise ball thingys!

I'm gonna have to read up more on educated hands, and try harder, oh wait I'm quitting! Oh well not yet I guess...

anyway many thanks for reply :)

Flipper
 

First, don't try to figure out Ted Fort - it's a dark world there and very disturbing things happen! Leave it alone!

You need to find out why you have to flip- one purpose of the flip is to close the clubface - so those things that "open" the clubface are "flip enablers". The face on right hand swing- your clubface is really open to the mat line at impact fix. Watch out for the "flip enablers" - open face, weak grip, closed stance, etc. etc. Easy right? Whoa! why are you sliding back into those things after you initially made the change I talked about? Oh! you can't count on the new changes - you're more comfortable with the flip enablers and that pattern - those changes didn't immediately give you the same consistency- gotcha! Plus that strange feel- that can't be right - "I mean I must be looking really non-golf like in my motion right?"

Bucket- He says he is not a prolific poster - yet he's posted three times- please advise.

Swingers need not apply
 

If you don't know how to use your Right Arm, it's impossible. That's the very reason that I tried the unusual. I was thinking of a fade-away jump shot in basketball and was curious if I could make a true "reverse pivot". I wanted a body motion that would be counterproductive. In practice and in teaching, I add things, remove things, and reverse things to find the effects.

There are those that comment on the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of Hitting. I've measured one of my "reverse pivot" drives at 250 yards with a Bushnell laser. It's no monster drive, but it shows that the Right Arm is capable. Add a small measure of a "normal" Pivot and watch the ball fly.

As an aside, the "reverse pivot" is a great way to get a bet.

Thanks for taking time to look at my swing, I'll check out that open position at impact fix. I THINK my big habit is to stand waaay closed with a closed face, I have no idea why i've worked myself into this position... I guess if i time it okay i can hit 'okay' shots that sort of pull draw, not proper golf shots though, I can be pretty accurate but my distance is terrible.

Not too sure I understand what you mean by "flip enablers", my closed stance is one of them you say, can you elaborate at all?

Thanks
Rob

MR FORT!!!

Great to hear from you, I feel honored, honest!!!

Can you explain what you mean by "If you don't know how to use your Right Arm, it's impossible." It would be great if you could.

Do people really "comment on the ineffectiveness and inefficiency of Hitting." I don't get it, some of the greats are hitters aren't they? I have no idea if I'm right but isn't Trevino one?

Any chance you might look at my swing vids and offer input? I ain't pretty I realise...

Rob, my two cents would be to suggest you go to Lynn's youtube channel and watch the lesson with Colin Neeman series of videos.

I would also suggest you check out any video of Lynn where he talks about hinge action.

Your swing isn't awful, a lot of it looks good and I'm sure all the AI's on here would love to get their (educated) mits on you because IMHO it wouldn't take them long to have you hitting piercing frozen ropes into the yonder!

If you don't have it, get "Alignment Golf", you will find it extremely useful, especially all the drills.

I should add that I am merely a seeker like yourself, I have no formal training whatsoever.

Thanks fot the 2 cents GPS. I'll have to think about getting the Alignment Golf" DVD sent over here to Blighty!

I have indeed watched the Colin Neeman video and watched Yoda's hinge action vids, all numerous times.

Now and then i seem to hit the ball very very solid at the range (all my golf is at the range, i rarely play these days...) E.g. for the last couple of days it's felt really good, BUT and it's a big but, i can hit nice straight 7 irons 140 to maybe 145, my PW bang on 100 but that's it... that distance is no good, i see 12 year olds half my size zooming it past that. I can fly a 5 iron maybe 155, my driver maybe 200 max carry. so i just KNOW i can't be getting any lag with those numbers. damn frustrating for sure.

i really do get the CONCEPT of a flat and rolling wrist but boy do i seem to have a hard time gettin it done! :(

thanks again guys for all feedback :)

Rob, if you've watched those clips, then next time you get a chance, hit a lot of angled hinge shots.

This will give you an idea of how to keep that left wrist flat at impact.

old school memories
 

I don't know how many times I was told to "take my right side out of it." It was as if my right arm was supposed to be a ribbon flapping in the breeze behind as much "body turn" as I could create. I was never told that I could use my right arm. I was told to "turn and hold on." Lag was preventing the clubhead from passing instead of creating pressure through the pressure points in the hands.

But, times have changed. Hitting was an awakening for me.

Are you talking about videos that you've posted or sending videos for a lesson?

Hi YodasLuke

Thanks again for response; yes I was referring to the video links I put in my first post in this thread or as below.

The face-on is not great quality, not on youtube anyway. The DTL ones are better, but you really can't appreciate the true flippyness of my swing from that angle I guess, the lousy address position, weird plane and other horrors are there to see though! I'd say this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brLYSv8YLhM is an accurate representation my golf swing on a good day... In other words, I seem not to be swinging too hard here, my rhythm seems ok, I don't seem to be swaying off the ball too much going back, and the ball is going pretty much where I expect it to (if NOT in line with my feet i realise!) but, as usual, not very far.

I CAN actually stand square or open, and seem to hit it not much worse, but for some reason this super closed stance is the way I've evolved, it feels a little better, and it's the way I get the least bad result.

If you want to see a better quality video of my front view swing (and not converted to right handed!) you can download it here
http://www.project900.com/vids/111.avi
it's a biggish file at 40mb, but the better quality lets you see the hands and clubhead better. I don't know much about video file types but if i convert this to a .mov or something and upload it, I lose resolution.

It is my own attempted analysis of this front end shot of myself and looking at your 'reverse pivot' video that prompted me to start this whole thread!

What I mean by that is this, I can see a lot wrong in my swing, (e.g. starting with a big sway off the ball at take away) but for me the the big thing, that seems to stand out was, although I seem to make an 'ok' weight shift back towards the target, as I swing down, my forward hip slides laterally but does not turn/move back AT ALL, until well AFTER the ball has been struck. The knock on effect is, i'm completely in my own way coming back to the ball, and what to me, doesn't seem like too bad an initial start down, becomes a horrible throw of the club, a lifting action of my trail hip and foot, and in my attempt to stay 'down' on the shot, a real contortion through the ball really lacking in power, and often striking just before the ball etc. etc.

Sorry if this reply is a bit long; BUT even if my self analysis is dead wrong, and my belief that my pivot is a huge mess, and the likely cause of my flip, when i see your 'reverse pivot' video i think JEEZ, clearly if you CAN do that, then a good pivot must have nothing to do with hitting the ball beautifully! It all must be down to those 'Edumucated Mittens' as Okie put it in the first reply to this post.

So therein lies my confusion and my frustration. Just so you know I have hit hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands, of balls in this last year or so. I have watched your vids and Yoda's many many times and i've spent many hours trying to get a FLW but not to much avail... :(

Driving cars fast is SOOOOO much easier!

Many thanks

Rob

I'll try to respond with my layman approach. It worked really well in another thread. Several very good analysis were produced by people who know better thereafter.:thumright

I'll right this in a lefty version.

According to the first video your club catch up with your hand and gets past them right betwen your feet. That's the flip.

guote OB Left: You are letting the club outrace your hands and possibly letting the hands outrace your pivot as well. The body, hands and club are not properly synchronized. A perception of striking at the ball instead of striking through it may be a mental error here. Drag the club through the ball with your right side or drive through the ball with your left side. But don't flip it at the ball.

The low point of your swing seems to be at the ball if not before. Low point should be outside your right foot, which is way past your ball position. Lowpoint meaning the last point where you still move the club down and out. You fail to generate the club head speed you are capable of and you run out of steam long before you get to the ball. You've clearly fired you power accumulators too early.

Just to get a feel for something that is more right you could try to throw the club towards the target. With a golf stroke. Then just release the club so that it flies down the fairway. Test how long you can throw it and how straight. It is highly likely that you will get a different perception of the correct timing by doing this. Another thing that could produce a more proper feel would be to prepare your stroke for a fuller finish and follow thru. Your finish seems to be shorter than the backstroke. It should rather be the other way around. A short backstroke and a long follow thru. Or symmetry.

But going from feel to real - The flying wedges:

Your left hand should be level, bent and frozen from the very beginning and till the ball is gone. Your left elbow is allowed to bend and unbend. Your right hand shall be flat and level at address. It shall not be allowed to bend and arch at all before the club has reached low point, but remain flat at all times. But it is allowed to cock and uncock.

This means that the left forearm and the club will be one rigid unit without any moving parts. And the angle between left and right forearm will be constant so the two forearms will be quite rigid to. Does it feel flimsy and flexible? No. Does it feel heavy and solid? Yes. Will it feel natural to perform a stroke with the wedges intact? Probably no because the rest of your stroke isn't ready for it yet. You will have to adjust the body and arms components to get to the right position at the top of the backstroke and avoid the flipping at impact. A flip-alike thing will however happen past low point but then it's ok.

The flying wedges will impose certain reqairements and restrictions on your stroke. And they will be highly productive. They will dictate your body to align the pressure ponts 1, 2 & 3 more in accordance with an uncompensated stroke. You will have to adjust the timing and the rhythm, and possible the pivot itself and the arms movement to get it all together. The wedges shall remain undisturbed until the ball is gone. My guess is that you will have to drive your pivot a few degrees further through and have more open shoulders before impact. And that you will be forced to wait out a little with the arms in the down stroke compared to what you are used to.

The flying wedges are a good point of reference for getting things right. They will remove certain degrees of freedom that can only ruin your stroke. So you can use them to enforce a better stroke pattern overall. And when you get it right you can strike the ball as hard as you wish.

Start with the little strokes. Then proceed with easy pitches. And when you start getting things together you can increase the length of the back stroke.

In the first video you posted you are doing a full stroke waggle, by starting at the ball. You could do the same with the flying wedges implemented and the frozen left wrist. But instead of starting at the ball you should bring it forward and start outside your right foot - at low point. You will need to do this above the ground and bring the club back above the ball of course. But it will give you a good indication of how your pivot and arms need to work through impact.

The flying wedges doesn't fix all stroke problems. For instance it is still possible to mix hitting and swinging in a very counter productive way. But the flying wedges are corner stones in a golfing machine and a safe path to lasting progress. That's why there is a lot of info about them at this forum.

WOW! Bernt man, I'm not sure I understand what the heck you just wrote :eh: but i really appreciate you taking the time to do it!

A LOT of what you have written rings true though, so I'm going to re-read it a few times and work it out!

Thanks for the input, very much appreciated.:thumright

Rob