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What are the fundamental alignments of a good Pivot?
We talk so much about the Hands, Wrist Action, Lag Pressure, the Right Forearm, Hinge Action . . . all basically Power Package alignments . . .
So since we are talking Alignment Golf . . . let's talk about the Alignments in the Pivot. Homer said something like the Pivot was the sack you put everything in (OK that's teed up HIGH for the goofballz in the romper room). But talk to me about first the FUNCTION of the Pivot and what Alignments you think should be present and how the should move in space and in relation to what e.g. Delivery Lines, Plane Angles, Stance Lines, Hand Paths etc. Holla back. |
Zone #1 -- Body Control -- Concepts and Procedures
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Do you want all the spine shifts and axis tilts for arc and angle of approach and the relationship of the arms to the body ? Rotated or Flat shoulder turn ?
Swinging or Hitting. How low or high of a shot ? Hook Slice? Or just "a free turn in both directions" |
:)
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How about lets start with STANCE and go from there. :) Alignments? |
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Around the trees to the left, around the trees to the right, ON THE GREEN! |
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Ben Hogan |
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Let's go Big'Un!!! Pick one and let's start hammering and welding it together. Cast the first line in the pond and I'll put some pictures on the hook if I can find some good ones to support you. Mark! Set! Go! |
Denny -- Playin' It As It Lies
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Denny tells it as it is. No 'sugar coat'. If he says it, he believes it. And if it's about golf, his beliefs are grounded in 'the dirt'. So listen up. Regretfully for those on this site, he is not an accomplished typist, and each post is a 'hunt and pecked' labor of love. Hence, his limited participation over these past three years. :crybaby: Thanks for all you do, Denny. We appreciate you, the work you do and your support and contribtions to this site. :salut: |
You nailed me. Actually my daughter (that's me) is typing this message at the moment: "My dad types at four words per minute - I'm getting paid four bucks a minute to type this, but then he knows it won't take me thirty seconds.
He DOES work twelve hours a day, but golf IS his life in a way few other people have devoted themselves to a passion - and if it wasn't for this website, he'd never even peck at a keyboard. He says he's learned a great deal from George Kelnhofer, Chuck Evans, Lynn Blake, Mac O'Grady, and Homer Kelley - as well as from other contributors on these sites. And he is dedicated to always becoming a better teacher. He thanks you, Lynn, for your kind words and for keeping Homer's teachings alive." |
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At least that is the way I see it.... it transports and powers and aligns the power package until blast off( release acc.4)...then it moves to allow maintaining of FLW and straight plane line tracing....more accomodating motion rather than powering motion. Please correct me if you think that this is wrong. Thanks. |
Eye Out On Dad
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A daughter-caddy is one thing -- ask Orville Moody or Bruce Lietze! -- but a daughter typist . . . Well, now . . . That's priceless! :thumright P.S. Hmmm . . . on the other hand, $4 per minute = $240 / hour = $960 / day. Which is about right for those caddies whose boss hits it on most every greeen and makes everything. |
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Pivot
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I agree... this could be a good one!!!! Shoulder Turn, Hip Turn, Hip Action, Knees, Feet, Spine, Head, Tailbone, COG Transfers, etc. Just because one believes in Hands Controlled Pivot, does not mean that the Pivot cannot be worked on. The 3 Zones... Body is #1, and if this is not working well, the Arms, and Hands will have a hard time doing their jobs. |
Many more moving Parts in Zone #1.
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PIVOT Example – revolving door.. |
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Homer also said that the golf swing was a ""multi stage rocket"".
You want to have a concentric arc swing(rhythm) . The pace is set by stage 1 of the rocket ----the pivot . The shoulders move best at rt angles to the spine with the necessary spine releases and axis tilts(to keep a stationary head). Seems to me that many of us leave our power package behind because we are "drop sliding" because we were taught to drive are legs. David Williams said in the book The Science of the Golf Swing that the hips should not get out of the way but rather an integral part of the gear effect that delivers the arms and club. The leader of this symphony is the brain hand relationship,_--(minds)eye hand coordination |
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Could you explain this or send me to a source that might shed more light on and support your statement(s). Thanks |
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So what does the Mike O School of Golf/Chopping-Up-Fat-Chicks say? Are you gonna badger Denny into a death threat? |
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What does concentric arc mean? Concentric in relation to what? If we shouldn't drive the legs . . . what is the alternative/more effective procedure? Thanks! boooookaaaay. |
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Bucks,
Bucket,
This may come as no surprise to you, but I find your thread confusing. I view the pivot as a movement, or action. Given that, what do you mean by fundamental alignments of a movement? Too many variables. Please break it down into finer pieces, so we can understand what you want to get to here. I see Lynn's gyroscope starting point, and am familiar with flywheel action concept. If you want to hit draws or straight shots, you never want the club to cross the line until impact. I am not sure how you define alignments in this type of action. Please enlighten me. Thanks for the email the other day, also. Moon pies and RC's to ya! UPP in freezing Ohio |
I got one for ya Bucket!
Key alignment: you should be sober and standing! :eyes:
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Mr. Bucket,
Good topic...so good that VJ Trolio wrote an entire book about it! What do you think about his ideas on the pivot, namely that the role of the pivot is to get the body's center of gravity over the left leg (and in front of the ball), and then to unwind? The closer the mass is to the axis of rotation, the easier it is to rotate. Of course the forward hips and the stationary head create secondary axis tilt that allows the right shoulder to come down on plane as well, which seems to me to be another very important job for the pivot to do. Isn't MORAD quite into the idea of the COG getting on to the left side, and the power is generated mainly from body rotation? Of course they skin that cat a bit differently than Mr. Trolio. From my personal experimentation with his ideas and others I have studied, the important jobs for the pivot are: 1. Get the weight LEFT in preparation for or during the downswing. 2. Allow the right shoulder to get downplane 3. Allow the body to rotate as fast as posible and thus transfer that rotation to the power package Another question for you...does the pivot stop on its own (i.e. runs out of gas), or should we be doing something conscious to slam on the brakes and transfer the momentum further down the kinetic chain? I know you have been doing a lot of thinking and studying about this topic so I am curious to see what you think! |
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So you tell me . . . what body parts are involved in the pivot . . . and then we can start to break it down how they should work . . . The other thing I think we need to discuss is what should the Pivot accomplish? I have some ideas but I'm not sure that they are on point. So I don't know all the answers. |
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I know you're not dodging, Bucket. I'm interested in hearing your experiences because I see you asking a lot of the same questions I have been thinking about recently. I will respond to your bits and pieces with my own bits and pieces, maybe between the two of us it will makes sense, at least to ourselves!
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So Center of Gravity. If you are standing erect (who's going to be the first one to go "there"), I'd say the overall COG is inside your body. But once you start bending at the hips and knees it probably moves out and down into space. I think the Trolio deal works well BUT the danger to me is . . . you are essentially getting Axis Tilt on the Backstroke and going further left on on the Downstroke. So if you let your head drift right as your hips go forward on the back stroke . . . you have moved low point and will have difficulty getting there. So the key is making that move and going more forward or left as you have posted earlier. I'm pretty sure that's in his book right? Plus Hogan's hands went "around the corner" if you keep your hands going out it's push and hook city. His arms and body move throught the ball together and the club exits LOW. Make sure you jack your volume WAY up when you watch this club so you can hear it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSAAvhukTiE Here's some great footage . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqI6I...eature=related |
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Why is it that people play the ball back in their stance? :) |
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No need to apologise for butting in, in fact I am the one who threadjacked this in the first place! Why do you think how far the hips travels is more important than speed? Not that I necessarily agree or disagree, just wondering where that comes from. Also, what role (if any) do you think that pivot braking plays in all of this? It seems to me, that to maximize the effectiveness of the pivot, the hips have to move a certain distance and a certain speed, with maximum speed being attained at a certain point....and with the hips slowing down and transferring their momentum to the shoulders at a certain rate and at a certain point...agree or disagree? Clay |
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What good is going fast if you can’t sustain the Lag. Besides, people have different speeds. People with fast Hips won’t hit the ball any farther unless they can move that Right Hip a long Way Through Impact. “The greatest hazard this Component faces if the belief that “Effort” is “Power.” No amount of effort will produce more than a player’s maximum turning speed. Regardless of effort you simply cannot push anything faster than you can run. Mechanical Advantage (1-H) must be utilized making Clubhead acceleration on “Overtaking” process (2-P, 6-M-1). However, tremendous energy can be consumed in trying to offset conflicting alignments, without ever achieving the player’s full speed potential. Study 5-0 in this connection.” Please keep in mind that Most Golfers (maybe 95%) do not move their Right Hip Far enough. You though, may have more than adequate Right Hip Travel. But, if you find yourself moving the ball back in your stance for Irons, then you probably don’t either and you simply have not learned to Pivot in a way that allows for one Ball Position. If you play the Ball back in your stance, then it’s because your Hands simply are not getting to the ball if played just behind Low Point. That’s a Pivot Problem. First learn to Pivot, then learn to go faster, IF your Body can Handle it. Mine can't!!! I'm 6 feet tall, 200 pounds, and My Pivot is too powerful for my arms and hands to handle. I'm very Strong but my arms simply cannot handle the Pressure that my Pivot can put on them. My Hands know, and they Tell me to take it down a notch. Honestly, during my downswing, my Hands are Telling my Pivot to cool it. |
Be with them pigmies in New Guinea
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Daryl,
Is there such a thing as the right hip traveling too far, or do you think Michelle Wie, Ty Tryon and other Gumby finishes add distance? |
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How much driving can pivot do once the 4th accumulator has been released? All above assumes swinger. |
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At Impact, my Pivot is at its strongest. It slows after Both Arms Straight. Do this: Stand in a Doorway. Face the Hinges. Take your Left Foot and put your left Heal against the inside of the Door Jamb. Your Right Foot is inside the Room. Take your posture. Using your Right Leg, move your Right hip toward the door casing. Your Left Hip will hit the casing first. Keep pushing with your Right Leg. About 100 pounds of pressure so far and you haven't even added Hip Action yet!!! You better use a folded towel or you'll hurt your left hip. If you did this behind a 4,000 pound car, you can push it with just your hip and Right Leg. Do you get how to do this drill? I might be able to explain it better. |
Has anyone tried this drill? Any Comments?
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