Hands Controlled Pivot-- 2 Schools
 

There seem to be at least two schools of explaining a Hands Controlled Pivot.
1. Move the Hands, and the Body will react to that movement. The example sometimes given is...Reach down and pick up an object. The body moves as a result of the hand going to the object. Now... TAKE THE HANDS TO THE BALL, AND THE BODY WILL REACT.

2. This one sounds similar to, Pivot Controlled Hands. The HANDS DON'T MOVE, UNLESS THE PIVOT OR BODY MOVES, however, the MIND IS IN THE HANDS.

Are these the same thing, or are they different? What do you think?

IMO, it is all a matter of perception. Personally, my mind is in the hands, but my pivot "powers" them, or so I feel.

I would explain thusly. Swingers aim the thrust through his hands (passive) - the body provides the blast off power. A hitter actively drives the thrust though the hands/arms.

I suppose you could have a true pure pivot controlled swing but is it realistic?

I struggle with this one a bit Lagster so maybe writing a response will help crystalize an answer.

Both options have the same intent based on identical start down positions. That is, the hands are involved in the aiming just as if you were throwing a baseball.

The first example is biased towards the hands leading the body, and the second is the body leading the hands.

In reality, both examples start with the body leading the hands. In order to pick an object off the floor, the hands get in a position to grab an object; lets call that the "start down position", but the body delivers the hand several feet, then the arm extends so the hand can do the "picking". Its easy to do this experiment and in every case, the body moves well before the arm and hand reaches out.

Personally, I think the second option is more correct wording because the first example implies that the start down is initiated with a movement of the hands.

I think there needs to be agreement about where the hands start from. If we agree that the "top" or "end" of the swing is where the aiming begins, then we could also agree that the hands are in a position to be accurately delivered to their aiming point.

From there, the body transports the hands in the same way a Pitcher would deliver low, inside fastball.

my thoughts after nearly 2 years of incubation....
 

Thanks for raising this one Lagster, provokes me into writing which, like Bagger stated, can crystalise one's ideas.

I believe there are 3 stages of the journey to what i believe is Homer Kelley's true definition of "hands controlled pivot".

1. Pivot controlled hands
2. "Conscious Hand sensation" controlled pivot ( imperatives required / essentials desirable)
3. "Conscious hand motion" controlled Pivot ( Imperatives and Essentials are MANDATORY to make it work)

Stage 1 (pre TGM)

Pivot controlled hands

Most golfers who have played/learnt golf in the last 20 years come to TGM with little or no concept of hand sensation or movement in the back or downswing. They may even have been told that the hands are responsible for all the problems in theri swing.

They have their mind in some part of their body/pivot and have a vague awareness of swing plane ( getting the arms and hands sufficiently "up" in the backswing) but that is about it... pretty much everything else is "downswing blackout".

then, one day, they happen to chance upon TGM based knowledge....

They are allowed to consider the role of the hands.... not just passive clamps...CLAMPS THAT FEEL!!!!! pressure points....straight plane line.... lag pressure....flat left wrist....

STAGE 2

HANDS "SENSATION" controlled pivot

Their core knowledge of TGM allows them to feel lag loading ( this alone is a revelation) ....once recognised they can feel and identify the location of their hands are in the downswing and sustaining that sensation produces accumulator lag on the video cam.... ball striking improves...all is well.... they have added some downswing illumination and hence precision to the downswing.... less blackout but not yet daylight... many stop at this level...

BUT they still feel that the majority of active movement is in the pivot...leaving the hands purely as clamps which provide a CONSCIOUS LAG PRESSURE SENSATION.... basically they feel the lag sensation developed in transition.... recognise it and consciously point it at the aiming point whilst getting their pivot to do all the work...

I see this as Lagster definition 2 - mind in hands.... but .... still very conscious of their pivot work....

STAGE 3

HAND MOTION ( OR INTENTION TO MOVE HANDS ) Controlled Pivot

This is the Holy grail.... the conscious and deliberate MOTION of the hands actually causes the pivot to move.... both to provide power package transport and move out of the way in anticipation of the club's release....

This , I believe, can be achieved IF you truly adhere to the imperatives and the Essentials.
IMPERATIVES and ESSENTIALS are the framework, the scaffold, which allows the hand motion ( or "intended motion" of the hands) to control the pivot. If you have educated your body ( all 3 zones) to TRULY understand the mechanical restrictions/consequences that the body parts are placed under when you adhere to the "letter of the law" of the essentials and imperatives....

THEN , and only then, can the pivot respond appropriately to conscious hand motion.... it is so easy to get it wrong.... and make it look like the hands are moving independently of the pivot.... but i believe that in those cases You have not adhered to the essentials and imperatives.

On the video cam it will look like the pivot has moved first...and it has... but the hands are able to travel a bit quicker because they are travelling along a pathway which has been learnt and programmed.... they respond immediately to their programming and do not have to wait for you to consciously experience lag pressure.... too slow....

This is pushing the envelope of my current TGM knowledge and experience.... i am putting this forward to debate... shout me down if you think I am crazy or overloaded on Kool Aid.... but I think I am right.... and I do not usually say that on these forums!

Now to really push the envelope of my knowledge..here's the science bit!

It is well known that the brain has excellent proprioception for hand motion, signals passed from hand ( muscles, joints etc) UNCONSCIOUSLY and MORE RAPIDLY than the pressure sensation that we experience as "lag pressure" ( different neurones/ different speed of conduction/ different central processors). If there are two parts of the body which are more acutely monitored by your cerebellum than the hands and the head... well, i would be amazed....and by head i include eyes.... hand eye coordination is as much henad-head coordination IMO....

Any wonder why Homer talks about the hands and head so much??

So Conscious hand motion is actually using Unconscious hand sensation to monitor and control it. This sensory system has to operate at higher speed than conscious hand sensation. However, the cerebellum requires training to develop the neuronal pathways for precision delivery paths of the hands. Slower process required and conscious hand sensation can aid this ( see stage 2).

Now that is enough to be going on with.... i am just going to duck for cover ....awaiting a few incoming rounds....:laughing9

When i first read the book, the sentence below is one of the most unforgettable:

“Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot”

I think my hands are still stupid!

Whatever-controlled-pivot for whatevering
 

The soccer player has a
1.leg-controlled-pivot for kicking, or
2. head-controlled-pivot for knocking, or
3. hands/arms-controlled-pivot for throwing, or
4. belly-controlled-pivot for yelling, or
.............

In essence, they are all "LAG"-controlled-pivot for lagging.

In golf, the club happens to be held by the hands.

Your basic PROCEDURE has to be take hands up and down the plane. But you still have to train and monitor the pivot right? Think about all the stuff that you can do at one time (drive, eat, listen to radio, talk on phone, yell at kids) . . . . they all are not your PRIMARY focus or end game but you are monitoring a lot of stuff. Focus is to keep the car in the lines or to run over the 'possum or whatever. But you can still pick your nose and listen to the radio while you do it. But the overall mission is to keep it in the lines or take the hands up and down the plane.

Great post, golfbulldog.

When thinking of Homer's emphasis on the Hands, I am always reminded of the Homunculus and the disproportionate amount of the brain allocated to their functioning.

Is that Ted in the second photo?

not a chance
 

It can't be me. He doesn't look pregnant.

HAND CONTROLLED PIVOT - 3rd school
 

Had a long discussion with a TGM AI in Hong Kong about 10-24-F “Flip release”...Pivot controlled hand.

We said that we should really work out the different between HAND CONTROLLED PIVOT & PIVOT CONTROLLED HAND.

I, JMHO, believe Homer terms “Hand Controlled Pivot” and “Pivot Controlled Hands” does not mean “hand request the pivot” or “Pivot in response to hand” stuffs ….

I see these 2 terms as monitoring HANDS or PIVOT with Controlled Pivot or Controlled Hands respectively.

So many unnecessary disagreements were arisen with Hand control pivot or pivot control hand, seeing or treating the word controlled as control. As Homer said: always a dictionary definition.

Con·trolled – adjective
Con·trol – Verb

Just like Educated Hands (adjective with a noun)
Controlled Pivot
Controlled Hands

There is no terms of "Hand control pivot" or "Pivot control hand"

3rd school or primary school of thought?

Aim before you fire
 

KOC,

I think the premise of TGM and Homers 40 years of work are based on the concept of a hands controlled pivot in which the hands are directed towards an aiming point.

The opposite is the use of pivot controlled hands which does not employ an aiming point procedure. Release happens when the hands reach their habitual release point in relation to the body.

Hands controlled pivot seems way too easy to be this good. :laughing9 I've never had so much fun hitting balls, and that's inside off freaking mats!

Kevin

Teachers, it stated the aiming point concept is employable for pivot controlled hand, 10-24-F.

The Great Majority
 

Not a teacher KOC, just a fellow seeker.

It is stated in 10-24-F that there is an "alternative" to the aiming point procedure. Meaning there is no direct aiming point procedure available for the Flip Release, but there is an alternative for getting in the right position such that the hands reach the correct low point (impact fix) condition for straightaway ball/clubface impact. That is; opening or closing the stance line depending on club selection.

I'm not against the Flip Release and I'll wager that the vast majority of golfers use it unknowingly. Classic basic instruction:
Use a shoulder turn takeway
Keep the Triangle maintained
Turn around the spine
Swing the clubhead
Roll the forearms through impact

Nothing really wrong with it except there is no right forearm takeaway and no aiming with the hands to their impact fix location, thus no guarantee of consistency. (I guess there is something basically wrong here).

I think your word play of Control vs Controlled is not a good use of grammer. I agree with the dictionary definitions, but when they are used as a descriptive title "Pivot Control Hands" it is grammatically incorrect. Unfortunately the English language isn't very flexible so even if Homer wanted to use Pivot Control Hands to better express the "action" of the procedure, it would still be grammatically correct to describe it as Pivot Controlled Hands.

Hmmm....in danish we don't even have a word for alignment.....explaining TGM in my language can be real hard. I'm writing a series of articles for a danish golf paper, trying to explain the various concepts of The Golfing Machine, and according to the editor I have to do it so that my grandmother gets it....now, that's a challenge:rolleyes:

sorry for the threadjacking...back to topic:golf:

Bagger Lance,

I don't see the word "alternative" in my 6th edition, am I missing somewhere?:crybaby:

It reads:-

"The Aiming Point (6-E) equivalent for this procedure is the "Open" and "Closed" Stance Line (10-5) which varies the Ball location in its relation to the body for any given Release Type (10-20, 10-24), to compensate for different Clubshaft lengths and must be worked out by experiment (See 9-1-1) because the players habitual Pivot procedure will bring the Hands very dependably into Release Position at the same point in relation to the body.

I know that no one will buy my "playing word" concept...but when I read 3-F-5 (1); 9-1-1 through 9-1-12; chapter 4 and 5 wrist and hand education and monitoring, i really don't have a concept that which one control which one...9-0 The Basic Motions that constitute the Golf Stroke are
divided among three separate-but simultaneous and synchronous Zones of the action that is occurring throughout the stroke.

I will stop here as my english is bad, golf stroke is bad, just a hacker who don't understand the book but hoping that there will be no disargeement of hand to pivot or pivot to hand. I hope I would follow 3-5-F to enjoy practice and playing...G.O.L.F. Fun

Its all in the knowing
 

Hey KOC - no worries. I used alternative and equivalent interchangeably. Probably not a good idea and if it helps, just substitute the word "equivalent" in my post above as I probably took some liberties.

You are right that the golf swing is a very wholistic action through all of the zones; Its an athletic endeavour. What is in control is your intent. Beyond that it is directing the most efficient and productive tool at your disposal towards that intent.

Because I aim, my intent is to compress the golf ball with a square clubface on the third inside dimple from the back center, what is the best tool to accomplish that goal? I've learned that the aiming point for my pitching wedge is about 3 inches in front of the ball so I pick the spot on the ground along the baseline of the plane and from the top of my swing, I drag the #3 pressure point as far down to that location as I possibly can, all the while monitoring lag pressure so I don't release it too early and have the right amount of pressure for the distance I have chosen.

whew...thats a lot to think about! Good thing I don't have to think at all because my job is to look at the baseline spot and aim my #3 pressure point at it. In my mind all I'm thinking about is distance to the pin. Its as easy as throwing a stone.

What if I want to hit my pitching wedge 100 yards instead of 120 yards? My aiming point doesn't change but my pivot must accomodate these demands based on lag pressure felt in my right hand.

Thats all it is. An awareness of lag pressure and where it is being directed.

I really don't want to bash pivot controlled hands because I believe their are teachers who can teach it well, players who find it very effective and player athletes who earn millions on the PGA TOUR using it.

I played today and will play again tomorrow, and even though I attempted an awareness of my hands to their aiming point, there were plenty of shots when my pivot was boss and a few minor pushes and pulls as a result. :crybaby: Oh well, Its all good.:)

FWIW, I hate to see you selling yourself short KOC. I have been impressed by your TGM knowledge for years, and you have been very helpful to my learning!

Kevin

I have always learned and taught a hands controlled pivot. The first person to talk to me on this gave me 2 examples: a pivot will not bring the hands to the top of the backswing but the hands moving to the top will create a pivot (maybe not a great one)

It all comes down to the player and if the player has uneducated hands. I find that the hands can get started on a good path if the pivot starts the backswing, but I feel that once the hands start to work properly, they should be able to control the pivot and everything else in the swing.

From my playing experience, if my pivot controls the arms and hands, I can flush it, but flight varies. If my hands control it and then work towards an aiming point, then I can knock down a flag or 2. This is my feel as a player and may not always link with my ideals as an instructor.

Bagger Lance -- Doin' It For the Love of the Game
 

On-the-money insights, Bagger. They are the product of much ball crunching, book reading and mind searching, and it shows. You pursue Golfing Perfection because you love it, and that shows, too.

Thanks for all you do for our members . . .

For LBG and its mission . . .

And for me.

:salut: