push and pull?
 

Is it possible to both pull and push the club through impact at the same time? I had someone ask me this the other day and could not come up a good answer, maybe you all could help me out.

Thanks,
Kevin

IMHO-
Not really. Both qualities of the power source would be compromised and weaken. Some will say yes and argue the point til blue in the face. Pushing a pull is like a brake. Throwing out a push is off plane and reduces muscle power. Either one alone works great.

Another way to say it is.
all the left side is only being able to pull all the right side is only being able to pull.

I guess what I am trying to ask is this,

Imagine you and a buddy are discussing the golf stroke:

You Say: The golf club can be either pulled or pushed through impact

Your Buddy Says: why cant it be pulled and pushed through impact at the same time?

What would your response be?

I would say "because pushing overrides centrifugal force" and if he wanted to know more, I would go a little deeper. But that is pretty good food for thought.

1-F Only the Right Arm and Shoulder are in a position to “Push.” Everything else in the Stroke “Pulls.” Study Component 19.

If Homer’s statement above is correct then if, at the same time as you are using your Right Arm and Shoulder, you use anything else to assist in powering your stroke you must, by definition, be pushing and pulling at the same time. True or false?

Dr. Doolittle, is that a Pushmepullyou?
 

It can't be done successfully or to any advantage.

Crossing the Border Line
 

For the most part, we are talking about the moment of truth...impact.

It can be argued that there several things that are pushed and pulled at the same time in the golf stroke. For instance, to pull from the ground up do you push the feet into the ground?

Back to impact...

6B nailed it above, but to add to his comments.
If you you are swinging and decide to override CF, then the stroke becomes a "hit" and if you haven't prepared your machine for hit characteristics such as angled hinging, clubface closing/layback and crossline delivery then you missed the shot.

If you are set up for hitting and decide during the stroke to pull with the pivot through impact your rhythm, clubface alignments and plane will also guarantee a weak/missed shot.

Study the Law of the Flail in 2-K for details.

I'm going to step out on a limb with more food for thought...

In a pure left arm swing, the (pushing) role of the right arm is to maintain or maximize extensor action without overriding centrifugal force. Some can say the the left arm is pulled straight by the right, others can say the right arm pushes the left arm straight. Still others will say, its neither because centrifugal force pulls both arms straight. Extensor action is what it is. It's the third side of the triangle attempting to fully straighten at all times. Homer called it Extensor Action because the use of it is active. Otherwise he would have called it Extensor Motion.

Adding structure with extensor action (an active right arm) will add distance to a swing by allowing resistance to hand deceleration as the accumulators are released to their inline condition. It also reduces clubhead deceleration during the impact collision. In this case, adding extensor action structure will feel like you are pushing through impact, but in reality you are resisting deceleration without overriding centrifugal force. You are maintaining a constant hand speed around the endless belt without disrupting centrifugal throw-out action.

This concept takes us into the "mysterious" realm of the 4-barrel swing. It takes you so close to throw-away that Homer only recommends it for the most skilled players. In other words there is a very fine line between a 4B swing and overriding CF, which turns the swing into a very bad hit.

Sustaaaaiiiinnnnn the laaaaggggggg....

6B - You answered my question very well, it just took some time for it to sink in. I appreciate yours and everyones resonse so far in this thread.

This place is great!

The question was "Is it possible...?" not "Is it advisable...?"

Lee Trevino pulled with his last 3 fingers and nobody here will call him a swinger.

I would just go out on a limb here and say there are very few pure swingers on the PGA tour, but alot of horizontal hinge action.

There is a pull at the start of the down swing for a Hitter to set up the radial pushing action. I think when folks speak of pulling and pushing at the SAME time - it is at release.

No doubt about that!
There is very few pure anything. If there were this place would be pretty quiet.:laughing9

Maybe it depends on what you're pushing. What I mean is, if you're pushing against pp1 (as a swinger) instead of the club, then aren't you just further accelerating the left arm, and thus still swinging via cf? In that case, you aren't accelerating the club both radially and in a linear fashion simultaneously, even if you feel a pull and push simultaneously, right?? I believe someone posted something to that effect here before, but I'm not sure.

You would be hitting /switting

Just because the Right Arm is straightening thru the shot- it doesn't mean that you are using an active #1 Acc and pushing the club as you 'throw-out' the clubhead. You can not NOT have a right arm not drive, even a passive one.

I think a 4barrel Swing is the FEEL of flipping the right hand perfectly at impact. Very controlled throw-Away. And we know the tour guys are masters at throw-Away. We aren't close.

But surely if you are feeling pp#1 you are pushing to the point of overiding CF force?

I don't think so. You throw the clubhead in an whirl/arc. 1#pp is driving the shaft which can still have a clubhead whirling. Perhaps not the most efficient throw-out but not one that is not overriding CF if CF is still the top dog top dog delivery system.

But it is not a"straight line pull"-unless you are swinging the right arm-no?

This is kind of what I was trying to get at, although I assumed that, because of its location, pp1 wouldn't be driving the shaft; it woud be driving the left hand(?)

I don't think you would want to actively "drive" #1 after 4, 2, and 3 have been released. The resistance to deceleration is set up with Extensor Action pressure and remains constant throughout the stroke. As the accumulators release and momentum is transferred toward the clubhead, the heaviness and hand slow down is resisted by Active Extensor Action. It feels like pushing and in some sense, it literally is pushing in order to keep the hand speed constant. In that sense, it's a 4,1,2,3 release sequence with all accumulators still active at impact, but you are still dragging the clubhead.

An analogy might be a wet mop that is going to go through a sticky spot on the floor. You resist the deceleration with the heel of the right hand against the handle.

Most of the accumulators are not spent until after impact anyway, even though they release prior to impact. They stay inline and active into followthrough and beyond. PP1 continues driving to both arms straight, PP2 moves from level to uncocked, PP3 moves continues to roll horizontal to the plane, and pp#4 continues pulling with pivot motion.

The point I was trying to make is that the hands and clubhead decelerate as the accumulators release and the clubhead/ball collide. The 5th edtion of 2-K has some good detail that was lost in the newer editions. If you believe that the hands keep a constant speed on the endless belt for swinging, the best way to make sure this happens is to resist the slowing down of the hands as the accumulators release. PP#1 is all you have to resist decleration and as Homer said, it can add distance for the swinger...

But that implies you know how much pressure to apply before to the moment of truth. For most of us mortal golfers, all of this isn't necessary but it can be helpful at the TOUR level. The problem is that it is so close to turning into a HIT through impact, that it isn't worth it unless you really have it grooved.

Yoda or our other experts can step in anytime now as I've just about hit the knowlege limit on the 4B swing, pull/push discussion. :)

Did Hogan get it wrong when he said “On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand. But this is only half the story. HIT
THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you also will run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left.
YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT.”?

I believe it is extensor action -as opposed to a out and out drive of the right arm,as per hitting.
I would best describe my right arm as "aware" rather than "active".
As someone who had a real problem being over aggressive and using quite a lot of 'hit' in my swing,i have done a lot of work on trying too eliminate the right arm ,other than RFT and extensor action and focus on snap release and finish swivel.And of course PP#3

After further review...
 

Strav, when I wrote:

It can't be done successfully or to any advantage. I did not mean to imply it can't be done (impossible).

So should Kebeal’s answer to the person who asked him is it possible to pull and push the club through impact at the same time be ‘yes - but it is not advisable’?

IMO, Keerect!