The journey from "end" back to "top"...
 

Swinger goes to end, drag loads pp3, using aiming point concept for downswing... but from his position at "end" where does he start as aiming point for late, max trigger delay?

Hogan used to go to "end" ( at least in "Power Golf" era) and he had max trigger delay... but his hands move in "Top arc" section away from the target ( truly like a arrow from quiver) until he reaches "Top" and then they move in tight curve towards release point.

END


TOP


Where was he aiming his pp3 ( or should one aim pp3) in order to travel from "end " to "top?

Homer states that the "circle delivery path" is an extension of "Top Arc" and circle delivery is associated with no axis tilt...

DOes this mean that to get the "Top Arc" correct ( ie. position the hands for a relatively straight line delivery path) then you delay axis tilt until hands are in the "end" position... the the tilt of axis gives straight line delivery ...

In the Hogan photos ( from Power Golf) the shoulders seem o hve rotated a reasonable amount but the right shoulder has not descended much / at all... is this the result of delaying axis tilt? If so... how might one achieve it through aiming point?

If so, where is one aiming pp3 during the journey from "End" to "Top"?

Thanks for your answers.... you see that I am really working on the lag pressure and subsequent aiming point concepts at moment ( see othe rpost of mine in last month!)

Can you see the arrow being pulled from the quiver here? Get your club prepare to make a hammering motion in a vertical plane outside of your left shoulder. Let the club go way back and don't worry about your left arm bending at the elbow. Now hammer the ground from there. Did you "hit" with the hammer (club in this case) or did you swing/pull the hammer down? Now switch from the vertical plane of motion to the inclined plane. What did you find?

Hey on you Max Trigger Short Game question . . . check the pics in the book where you got these photos where Hogan is hitting short shots. Looks like Push Basic to me??? Hollatcha!

I agree with the push basic stroke in his wedges... he didn't go deep pitch position on all his shots... i guess with the correct change in aiming point this can occur naturally... and i think that there may be benefit for pictching...maybe... because lag pressure without aiming point concept is like Mike Tyson without eyes... all that power but nowhere to aim it effectively...

On these pics here... i do see arrow being pulled from quiver...I see the butt of the club move about 3 inches away from the target at the start of the downswing... i see about 40 degrees of shoulder rotation( from about 110 back to 70) and hardly any downward motion of the shoulder yet... i see the shaft go from being straight to bent...I can see his pp3 loaded...

I originally thought that you get more longitudinal pull ( more horizontal motion of shaft during the "top arc" section) by keeping the pp3 quarter turned for longer... and that this was associated with shoulder rotation before tilt... with axis tilt and rotation of pp3 back to "aft" also being associated... but just not sure... there must be some manifestation in the pivot from delaying the rotation of pp3 from top of shaft to aft.... just guessing at moment...

Here is Byron Nelson ( Winning Golf) at a real "top" position ( hands shoulder high)...

shoulders only 45 degrees rotated and right shoulder has not gone down much... I reckon he is still feeling lag pressure more on the top of the shaft than aft...

Now with your hammer stuff... it is 6.30 AM and the couple in the apartment below are already suspicious of the thuds on their ceiling :) ... but i think that i get what you mean... i pull my left arm down and club will uncock left wrist naturally on whichever plane i pull it down on... in vertical only plane there is no subsequent sequential release/rotation of forearm...but that does occur on an inclined plane...

Do people agree with this point ?

If so then where is pp3 felt and aimed? To get true circle delivery ( 10-23-E) i think that you have to move aiming point back and have no axis tilt... no?

"10-23-E Circle. ...the hands swing along on a continuation of the Top Arc...So - from any loading point the path to the ball, in this case is circluar, and is used, normally, only with "no axis tilt" ( 2-H) and arc of approach delivery line ( 2-J-3). See 7-23"

So when does the swinger (who goes to end and wants "top arc and straight line" delivery path) start to aim his pp3 at a forward aiming point?

Other sections that are relevant include :-

"10-23-C Top arc and striaght line. This pattern takes the hands beyond the top-of-the-line point, up and along an arc that is retraced when the hands return to the top-of-the-line point. This retracing is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with 10-19-C"

"10-19-C" = Drag loading...

"7-23 - ... The "axis tilt" ( 2-H) allows a line delivery path but does not require it.)"

I have read this stuff but am a bit confused... thanks for any help!

Dawg . . . Keep in mind the two very DISTINCT natures of Hand Acceleration being employed in Swinging vs. Hitting. The Swinger dependent upon CF reaches his Maximum Hand Speed MUCH quicker than the Hitter. The Swinger has a quick Start Down by spinning the flywheel. He reaches his Max Hand Speed very early (particularly Hogan with the quick hip turn). Once he reaches the speed he just uses the pivot to stay ahead. He has the pivot (MASS) to continue propelling the arms as the pivots momentum is transfered. So he can go to END (but doesn't have to) in order to have more arc to drag the club through and to get the Right Forearm in line with the Secondary Lever Assembly (club) to pull it downplane. The last thing the Swinger wants to do is to try to add further acceleration via the Right Tricep because will stiffle CF and essentially become a Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand is TOTALLY AND UTTERLY dependent upon his THRUST generated by the Tricep. He advisedly doesn't go to End but stops at Top in order to keep his Right Forearm and Pressure Point in line with the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club = 2 X 4). The Hitter has to have a slow Start Down so he doesn't "shoot his wad too early" via Accelerating too quickly unlike the Swinger. He must continue to THRUST with the Triceps to stiffle CF. If he were to go to End, odds are a) he would lose the in line relationship with the Primary Lever destroying his alignments and b) he would have TOO MUCH arc to move his hands through and couldn't continue to Accelerate/Thrust through the longer Arc.

I must call you to the carpet on the Byron Nelson pic though . . . that isn't a Top pic . . . that is a START DOWN pic.

The 'quiver' image is a very good one, but at least for me, it is far easier to get that move if you think of throwing the club AWAY from the target, in the opposite direction. As far as max delay, the power angle pro is a great aid to show you the proper feels for getting that right shoulder downplane IMO.

Interesting . . . how does that whole throwing the club away from the target dealie work? I'd like to hear more on that please kind sir.

A Good Top
 

Wonderful post, Bucket. Thanks!

And thanks also for the photo of Lord Byron at the Top. The Head is nicely centered, and the Pivot is textbook.

As a result, his Back does not lean well away from the Target and, in fact, is vertical. Compare the Head position and Pivot with TGM Photo 9-2-6. Note the angle of the Back to the vertical: Both exhibit little or no "pie."

:)

At root is extensor action, a movement away from the center of a circle, the radius. Think of lag pressure being applied outwardly, along that radius and around it (PP#1).

Think about how you would make your hands move around that circle to fully support impact with a forward leaning shaft, allowing on plane rotation.

Longitudinal force from the hands to the clubhead - outward force.

Thanks for the interest guys, i read what you say but not sure if it explains where the pp3 sensaton is aimed if a swinger goes to "end" and returns to "top" ( i was using "top" a la Byron photo as shorthand for "top-of-the-line" rather than "top" as in every stroke, no matter how short, has a 'top' which need not be a "top of-the-line" position - ie shoulder height hands.

"10-23-C Top arc and striaght line. This pattern takes the hands beyond the top-of-the-line point, up and along an arc that is retraced when the hands return to the top-of-the-line point. This retracing is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with 10-19-C"

Homer was OK with a "top of the line "position on the downswing... now thats enough carpet burns, Bucket!
Bucket quote " must call you to the carpet on the Byron Nelson pic though . . . that isn't a Top pic . . . that is a START DOWN pic. "

Sorry Bossmang! I misunderstood you question . . . I'm with you on your pic. It is at Top of the Line Delivery Path.

I may be wrong about this . . . but here goes . . .

Thrust is always CROSS LINE . . . So if you were to take one of them stretch band thingies and attach it to the ground at the ball or Aiming Point it will be a straight line regardless of if the hands are at Top or at End.

That being said . . . read up on the stuff about Wheel Rim vs. Wheel Track. I think Homer said that if you used the Arc procedures you should feel the hands move in a CIRCLE??? I'll check the book and holla back . . .

Somebody?

How about the endless belt to get from the end to the top.

I like your crossline thrust stuff... you had good post on that somewhere which i got saved , thrust is down and out to low point etc...

I been thinking today about it... Hogan has one of the most pronounced "away from target lateral hand moves" between "end" and "top-of-theline" on downswing....

He also has a pronounced lateral hip movement at the same time...

The hogan video with gridlines in the backgound really show up his head and hip moves and show his hands going the other way ( each moves about 1/3rd of a square)...

Still keeps his right shoulder up and shoulders minimal rotation...

He slides (and head returns to centre , and perhaps fraction lower, as address) all the time keeping hands and lag hovering, sustained... only then does his right shoulder go down and rotation occurs...

See the video if you can find it somewhere....

The hips go one way and the hands go the other , whilst lag is increased or sustained....

I guess the pp3 feel is one of hovering above your prey (like a hawk) just waiting for the moment of straight line delivery... he just waits for the slide to left ( during which the hands respond by moving opposite way ...?for balance? helps him remain centred?)... then bang...!

I think the that "ARC" of Top Arc is just the top pulley of the endless belt. Just smack it flip it and reverse it from the bottom pulley.

Picked up the new Hogan dvd set this week. It has some amazing footage. One thing that is particularly interesting even during some of his "out to pasture" swings, he took the driver to End but the irons ended at Top. His swing looked "flat" but this was because he just took the hands to the top of the Line Delivery Path with the irons. His driver motion is to End and the hands are higher and deeper.

In my opinion Mr. Hogan loaded the left wrist better than any player in the game. He is the poster child for Instant Hip Acceleration as described by Mr. Kelley. I think that the whole "bottom half going one way while the upper half goes the other" isn't something that people should actually try to do. It is a result of the Pivot Train overcoming the inertia of the club going back. Without question Mr. Hogan used a Lagging Clubhead Takeaway. I also think this made his transition as you have observed more pronounced. The Instant Hip Acceleration throws "your back against the seat of the car." He drags it back with the right arm, overcomes the inertia, and drags it through via the Instant Hip Acceleration. The inertia of the sweet spot gets THROWN against the #2 and #3 pressure points. Watch his left wrist load like hammering.

Anyone wishing to see God given grace should purchase the DVD set. Ironically there is some footage of Mr. Hogan drilling on the backswing with just the right hand on the club. No doubt he instinctively knew the Magic of the Right Forearm. Another observation is that Eldrick is definitely "Hoganizing" his motion.

Thanks Bucket, will go look for the DVD stuff... always good to see new footage of Hogan and the other greats from the past.

Another thing about these pictures....
 

The problem with alot of pop golf instruction trying to make everything sound exact, you often see phrases like - 90 degrees of wristcock at the top....on the way down he has retained this....etc. These teachers lack any precision or observational skills and make statements that sound logical to themselves but are really only articial means to make themselves sound good to people who don't know any better.....

You see in the picture of Hogan that the wristcock is way above 90 degrees... more in the region of 110.

The same can be said in this picture to a slightly lesser extent....



Notice that both of them that their wrists are not flat inline with the left forearm but rather flat towards the plane. This allows you to float load the second power accumulator to its max like this and the only way for this to occur, both anatomically and geometrically, is to have a left wrist flat against the inclined plane..... However the 90 degrees statement is true with a flat as 'flat' left wrist due to the simultaneous relationship with the wrist turn as described with my lab thread a while back...and you will never ever have the look of these players....ever !