Stretch Band Demonstration
 

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Either . . . or it could go to the Aiming Point . . . keep in mind the Aiming Point rests on the Delivery Line . . . so if you use the Geometric Plane Line then it's on the Plane Line typically forward of the ball for anything shorter than a 5-iron. If you use an Angle of Approach procedure employing the 10-5-E Closed Plane Line then your Aiming Point would actually be Cross Line on the 10-5-E line to right field.

Get you a buddy or a something to stick the band to the ground. Play around with it. One thing that you will definitely notice is that since the band represents the direction of Thrust . . . from your vantage point as the player . . . Thrust will always be Cross Line regardless of the procedure you employ or what Delivery Line/Alternate Target Line you choose.

This a critical point to understand in the book. It has a very much to do with Plane Angle, the Endless Belt, Straight Line Delivery Path of the Hands, Delivery Lines of the Clubhead, Aiming Point, Inside Out Impact vs. Inside Out Stroke, Trigger Delay, Axis Tilt, Circle Geometry and the absolute dismissal of the Target Line and the Clubhead to the HANDS and their Pressure Point Pressure.

If you get this part . . . you pretty much got the meat of the book IMO.

Pilgrim's Progress
 

What a great post, Bucket. Thanks!

This is not a 'quick read,' folks. Get your TGM and settle in for awhile.

"You can do a lot of learning in your arm chair."

-- Homer Kelley

You "sustain the Lag", the mother nature ("Law") takes care the rest.

Deliver LINES are for the Clubhead and Delivery PATHS are for the Hands. If you have a chance to look over the Delivery Path pics in Chapter 10 you'll notice that even with the Straight Line Paths there is an "arc" at the bottom. So this would be the Pulley portion of the Endless Belt. So you can jack your swing up by using Straight Line Delivery Path and a very small pulley and Maximum Trigger Delay ala Sergio. The opposite would be to use a big CIRCLE Path ala Tom Watson.

Not only is there an "arc" at the bottom, but there can also be an Arc at the Top really End. So if you are a Swinger and go to End, then you would Arc back to the Straight Line portion of the Delivery Path. But the Hitter who Ends at Top is basically stopping his backstroke at the TOP of the Straight Line Delivery Path and thus has no need to Arc back from End to the Straight Line Portion. So there can be a Pulley at the top of the Belt and the bottom.

The hands will always move in a circular path somewhere because they are connected to the arms and thus to the shoulders. Keep in mind . . . only thing round about a circle is its circumference . . . everything else is a straight line . . . Radius, Ray, Tangent, Diameter etc. Mr. K said that even with Circle Path the effort is straight line . . . I think that's in there somewhere.

Don't know if I answered your question though.

Thanks Boss . . . credit due to you and to Mr. K.

I think the Endless Belt Concept is PURE genius . . . the other thing I left out was CONSTANT HAND SPEED and thus STRONG DELIBERATE AND HEAVY FEEL OF DRAGGING THE WET MOP DOWN DOWN DOWN PLANE.

HOWEVER . . . I think one thing we MUST keep in mind is the images or misconceptions that can be associated with the language that we use to describe things.

I think that if people have the impression that can Load the Pressure Points as much as they like (strong) then they may OVERLOAD them and not be able to take the Lag all the way DOWN because they can't SUSTAIN it. It is of course SUSTAIN the Lag not INCREASE it.

OVER ACCELERATION IS THE MENACE THAT STALKS ALL LAG AND DRAG!!!

Case in point. . . I'm playing and just kind of scraping it around on Thursday. On the last three holes I think . . . I'm just gonna Load #4 and let my left arm be a piece of rope . . . just relax Bucket. Bada Bing Bada BOOOOOM!!! Three drives over 290. Two right at 3 bills. AND I DON'T EVER HIT THE BALL THAT FAR!!! So I finish PAR BIRDIE BIRDIE.

I think that you really have to get intouch with your SENSITIVE side at least if you are a Swinger. Your hands will send you more a SUBTLE message . . . My main man Eddie Cox says it should be "Sensitivity Points" and not Pressure Points. You gotta get really in tune with your Hands and Monitor the very subtle message they send you if you are going to effectively manipulate CF. You don't have to DO ANYTHING much. CF will work for you . . . I promise!!! If it can keep the Earth in its orbit . . . surely it can bust the cover off a golf ball for you.

Allowing CF to do it's thing is the most unnerving feeling if you aren't used to it; it feels like you're not in control of the swing. You're just along for the ride. This is probably why Homer said you can sleep and swing. Assuming you have all of your pre-swing alignments in order, you just kind of get the ball rolling. CF does the rest. Control freaks, beware.

Absolutely! The direction of the thrust is definitely to the Ball or Aiming Point . . .

4-D-1 Says it all . . . the best way to wreck the 1st Imperative . . .

Driving the Clubhead toward the Green (Steering), instead of toward the Ball (2-P), is the great disrupter of the Flat Left Wrist.

I can assure you that CF does NOT keep Earth in its orbit around the Sun! sky72

Well . . . I would say that Straight Line Delivery Path is to the Aiming Point which could be the Ball, infront of the ball, or behind the ball. All would be somewhere on the selected Delivery Line. The Clubhead seeks out the Delivery Line not the Target Line. But the effort is Straight Line DOWN AND THROUGH regardless of location of Aiming Point or Pulley Diameter.

Hope I ain't screwing this up.

Don't start that $%^& again!

Some random thoughts on:

I think that any focus on the clubhead and movement, is probably one of the major reasons for poor golf shots.

Homer was't the first to recognize this, his concept of 'educated hands' coupled with several other TGM principles are all pointed at 'stop trying to position the clubhead', 'stop swinging the clubhead', etc.

Thrust is always down and out, the forward direction is a function of pivot(including shoulder turn).

The Axe Handle and Rope Handle IMO really sums it up. Put that on the Inclined Plane and what do have? A golf stroke?

Although the focus may be on the ball or a point in front or behind the ball, Thrust must always be through, past the point of focus, this includes if one is attempting to drive to the hands location.

=D>

Absolutely - I often find it quite helpful to focus on a spot on the ground well ahead of the ball and try to send my hands 'through' their impact location - DOWN to that spot. Especially helpful for the short irons.

Bossman,

We are mixing our concepts here . . . these are 3 distinct but somewhat related topics.

1. Aiming Point
2. Impact Hand Location
3. Endless Belt

Study 6-E-2 in this regard plus 2-K. If you don't have the 7th Edition you NEED IT. Mr. K expands considerably upon the Endless Belt. Personally I think it is one of the major improvements that make the 7th a "top 3" of all editions (3 and 5 being the others).

I'm going to type what I think is relevant in 6-E-2 for you because I think paying attention to it will also help me. Most of this is the additional part added to the 7th.

6-E-2 THE AIMING POINT CONCEPT The hands and the clubhead combine as Clubhead Lag (5-0, 6-C) and can be utilized to execute "Delivery". . . and the difference in travel distance per degree of Angualar Motion becaus Impact always occurs during the "Pulley" portion of the Endless Belt travel (sketch 2-K #6); regardless of the direction of its Straight Line travel between pulleys (or of the Thrust during the Circle Path 7-23); because both of those lines represent the True Delivery Paths and move - physically - directly at the point on the Ball through wihc the Angle of Approach passes even with Aiming Point procedures; because The Machine delivers the #3 Pressure Point to Impact Fix Hand Location AT IMPACT with all Delivery Paths, Delivery Lines, Pulley Sizes, etc. because its structure is designed to do just that; hence the importance of a sturdy structure around the Endless Belt machinery. That is what makes the Aiming Point procedure possible at all. . . . .

Remember the "identities" of those elements of Release. That is - straight line portion of the Endless Belt locates the required Aiming Point AND VICE VERSA. But it DOES NOT dictate the Endless Belt (Hand) speed AND VICE VERSA. Summing up the Right Arm action - it is always a straight line effort and/or motion and normally, is strictly Clubhead Control. In the meantime the Flat Left Wrist (Clubface Control) under every condition or situation is concerned only with arriving at Impact, Vertical to the ground in the process of executing the selected Hinge Action. So, per 1-F the Hands are correlated independent of every other factor. Practice every phase, over and over until mastered.

So what the hell does this mean? Well it means a lot . . . if you can get this you got a lot of the book licked.

AIMING POINT:
Aiming Point is a point on the selected DELIVERY LINE (Plane Line, Arc or Angle of Approach) at which THRUST is directed DOWN and THRU. The Straight Line Portion of the Endless Belt LOCATES the Aiming Point (so it Points at it).

ENDLESS BELT:
Is concerned with the Hands, their Pressure Points and the ULTIMATE DISMISSAL of the CLUBHEAD. You do not HAVE A CLUBHEAD. You have PRESSURE IN YOUR HANDS. And you are to take your hands and their loaded pressure DOWNPLANE DOWN THE STRAIGHT LINE PORTION of the Endless Belt mechanism down and thru the Aiming Point. Your Hands are the Clubhead AND they are the BELT. The Endless Belt is concerned with CLUBHEAD control and Delivery NOT Clubface control. That is the relm of the Left Hand (Left Hand: Alignments and ClubFACE Right Hand: Acceleration and ClubHEAD).

IMPACT HAND LOCATION:
This differs from Aiming Point. The Impact Hand Location is "located" during Fix (over the left toe). The Machine ALWAYS EVERY TIME NO MATTER WHAT LINE, PROCEDURE, DELIVERY selected is designed to produce the IMPACT FIX HAND LOCATION AT IMPACT . . . and the ULTIMATE CONCERN (back to the 1st Imperative) is to DELIVER A FLAT LEFT WRIST (or its equivalent) VERTICAL TO THE GROUND AT IMPACT while executing the Hinge Action. Back to the Endless Belt per above Impact ALWAYS occurs during the Pulley portion of the Belt . . . but the effort is still a straight line effort.

So to me The Belt is there . . . if you chose to use the straight line portion and have a small pulley diameter you are jacking your PHYSICS up a few notches. But you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS want your Left Wrist Flat at Impact . . . no matter what even if you choose to stand upon your HEAD.

As far as the pictures you have selected . . . the pic in Chapter 9 I would say is a result of a LARGER PULLEY where as the pics in 10-24-E are actually there to illustrate the Snap Release. The text of that section references Aiming Point which is for executing a Snap Release which of course blends with Automatic Release . . . Here's some new stuff in 6-N-0 of the 7th that I think is relevant:

The smaller the Release Arc (Endless Belt Pulley - constant Hand Speed), the faster the Right Elbow must straighten and the faster there will be "Extension" (Lever Assemblies 2-P) and "Overtaking" (6-F, #3 Accumulator) until the Right Arm becomes straight. All without affecting The Travel Rate of the Endless Belt.

So the pics in 10-24-E you are seeing Max Trigger Delay and the smaller Pulley Diameter which is why you observe the difference in the chapter 9 pics. IMO.

Gold Digger
 

Hall of Fame post, Bucket. Thanks!

Thanks Pokechop! I think the Flail and the Endless Belt are BETTER than the Imperatives. Well maybe not . . . The only thing missing is Hinge Action. Of course that is a pretty big "only thing." Homer Kelley was a PURE genius.

Couldn't have made that post if it weren't for LBG . . . I'd still be stompin' around the golf course with my fanger up my nose . . . wait a minute . . .

Unless, of course, you're a genius like Lee Trevino. He basically set his body way left and swung out to the right with his ball positioned so that the delivery line, the ball and the target line all lay more or less on the same straignt line. Then he could swing the clubhead toward the target with impunity and never break down the left wrist.

Depends . . . you got options . . . Ball OR Aiming Point . . . least that's what I think.

Note in the quote Mr. K says "That is - straight line portion of the Endless Belt locates the required Aiming Point AND VICE VERSA." And the Aiming Point COULD BE . . . the Ball.

Thanks Bucket
 

Bucket,

Thanks for this thread--I even printed it out-- and have read it several times. You have definitely clarified some of the more esoteric concepts of TGM for me.

Thanks!

Why you dissin' me? I tried to answer them . . .

Here's what he asked again . . .

does the staight line thrust of #3 from the top go to the inside aft quadrant of the ball or does the straight line thrust of #3 from the to go to the hand location at impact ?
Straight Line Thrust is Crossline to the Ball or Aiming Point

is there an arc of the hands from release point to impact hand location with the line delivery paths? would this arc of the hands make it so the straight line thrust from the top to release or the straight line thrust from top to impact hand location are not equivalent?
would a straight line path from top to impact hand location lead to "too much foward lean" and/or swaying?
Yes even with Straight Line Delivery there is an Arc of the hands which is the Pulley portion. No. Impact Fix Hand Location is just moving the hands into a position where it looks to the player that the hands are over the left toe. That can be accomplished and should be present with any of the delivery paths. Maybe?

sorry 12 piece,i think my initial question was ambiguous. i was referring to the straight line delivery path and not delivery lines(angle of approach).
i may have added more confusion by interpreting in 6-c-2-a, "the straight line thrust of the #3 pressure point toward the angle of approach quadrant of the ball-or aiming point per 1-f , 1-l-9/10 , 2-j-3 and 6-e-2." as the DELIVERY PATH since it too is on the inclined plane.
the pictures of 10-24-e probably answers my initial question. the straight line path goes from the top to the ball and not the hand location at impact even though the hands are in front of the ball and have yet to be released.
in fact every picture of the straight line delivery path appears to go to the ball and not straight to the impact hand location.it also appears that there is a highlighted arrow pointing to the ball, indicating the direction of the straight line thrust ?
Yes. It could be the ball or the aiming point.

so it sounds as if we are in agreement ! i realize this is a smaller pulley, i realize the aiming point is on the delivery path, i realize that you are trying to get the hands to their impact location while maintaining the necessary aligments, etc.

but my question is, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN (and maybe you answered it), is the PICTUIRE 10-24-e #1& 2, AND/OR ALL OTHER PICTURES OF THE STRAIGHT LINE PATH CORRECT in that the STRAIGHT LINE DELIVERY PATH IS STRAIGHT TO THE BALL!!!! OR SHOULD THE STRAIGHT LINE BE DIRECTED AT SOME OTHER POINT!!!
The straight line delivery path locates the aiming point which could be the ball or a point in front or behind it.

Razzle Dazzle fizzled.

Bucket,

Don't have any idea where RBG's comment is coming from either. Your posts demonstrate a deep and uncommon understanding of the complexities of TGM. Your thoughts, explanations and insights are inspired and often provide unrivaled clarity.

I'm certain many others appreciate and learn from your efforts as well. Please keep this in mind and avoid getting too distracted by detractors.

Thanks man . . . I ain't mad. I was pretty sure I had at least attempted to answer his questions directly. Maybe not.

No biggie because I learned a lot while I studied it.

Thanks for the kind words.

You make some good points . . . My contention would be that AMBIGUOUS . . . could be? . . . I would submit that there are OPTIONS rather than AMBIGUITY. I would sum it up like this. There is Geometry and then there is Physics . . . and then there is Motion . . . and then there is ACTION . . .AND THEN there are ILLUSIONS:

The Geometry of Golf has two aspects – the facts and the illusions, visual and sensory. When facts are understood, the illusions not only cease to mislead but can be utilized.

There is the Geometry of the Delivery Paths (and Lines) which your quote from the 5th does a superb job of describing. So this quote we would assume to be a statement of FACT. And if this is the case, then why have an Aiming Point at all? Why not just take the hands straight down the Straight Line Portion of the Delivery Path to the ball?

I would submit that the reason for Aiming Point is to utilize and employ what could be argued to be an ILLUSION to bring MORE PRECISION to the Snap Releases of different clubs lengths. Remember Mr. K said that the Aiming Point was basically SUBJECTIVE and could only be identified by EXPERIMENT. So this is a personal thing. So if the ball works then fine use it. But if it don't. Then adjust the Aiming Point to control the release (OR adjust the ball position and have ONE Aiming Point for the same release feel for different clubs).

And then there is the Physics associated with the same Delivery Paths and the Endless Belt. Per 3-F-7-E, The correct concept of an “On Plane” procedure is driving the Club – not “a little downward and a little outward” – but “Down Plane”. Down Plane to full extension. Per 7-23 with the Straight Line Delivery Path "The Player envisions - is consciously aware of - a straight line wheel TRACK motion (rather than its rotation) toward and throught the ball or THROUGH THE AIMING POINT."

So we must remember that the Aiming Point Concept is primarily used to control the Snap Releases which per 10-24-E 10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release (6-N-0) as if there were to be no Release at all. . . .This action is possible only through use of the Aiming Point Concept (6-E-2). So is precision Impact control.

And then there is MOTION and ACTION. Earlier we were discussing Impact Hand Location. To me that is MOTION. All procedures produce some Impact Hand Location and that would be MOTION. Thrust on the other hand is ACTION and all Strokes have Thrust regardless of the method selected to accelerate the club. Per 7-23:

Normally, Delivery ACTION (Thrust) is "Cross-Line" - Delivery Motion is "On Line", even at Low Point, because the Delivery Path Angle (direction) is ALWAYS the Right Forearm Angle of Approach (7-3) even with the Circle Delivery Path.

This to me means ACTION (Thrust - Physics) is ALWAYS as above ALWAYS not just a little down and out but ALL THE WAY DOWN AND ALL THE WAY OUT . . . and if that is the Ball cool . . . but if that don't work then you have the Aiming Point . . . or if you don't like that then you have the Impact Fix Hand Location Procedure.

I think it is interesting that Homer talks about laws and then leaves something as important as aiming point to the subjective.

Perhaps he was not taking into account the element of 'time' of applied force in loading and unloading action, combined with the location of a specific aiming point.

That is to say, there is a relationship between loading/unloading/release point and aiming point, certainly for a swinger using CF and the core variable is time.

I would think that hand/belt speed would come into play here, specifically during transition.

I agree with you that this certainly makes perfect sense . . . HOWEVER . . . again there is Geometric Fact and then there are Illusions . . . which when they are UNDERSTOOD can be utilized to benefit the player. In this case the player can use an Aiming Point at which to direct or AIM pp3.

Also . . . the Impact Hand Location which we discussed earlier is an Illusion . . . from the player's perspective it SEEMS AS IF the hands cover the left toe . . . reality is different.

So bottom line as you said and as the genious that is Homer Kelley . . . we have options . . . lots of options some based in fact and others perception but perception can be reality too.

Many thanks to you as well. I hope that we have progressed. I know that sorting this out has helped me.

Not completely sure about this . . . but an examination of the text that is supported by the pics would probably be a good place to find an answer . . .

10-24-D NON-AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure delays the Triggering of the Release as long as possible and still allows sufficient time to execute the deliberate maneuvering of a Non-Automatic Trigger Type so that the Hands will still arrive in Impact location and position at Impact. A strong, deliberate whiplash type of motion.

I think that "allowing time" is the key element in the above. With the Non-Automatic Snap Release as with all Non-Automatic Releases . . . "There may be a “Starting to Hit” in the Non-Automatic but not with the Automatic." So you must have TIME to "start to hit" and therefore the arrow is further up the Delivery Line.

10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point through a Snap Release (6-N-0) as if there were to be no Release at all. This action is possible only through the use of the Aiming Point Concept (6-E-2). So is precision Impact control. A strong whiplash type of motion is very effective in understanding this procedure (Study 2-P, 6-B-2-0 and 10-11-3-0).

I think what the arrows are trying to show is in 10-24-E #1 the arrow is pointing at the point where the Line portion of the Delivery Path ends and the Pulley begins. However, in 10-24-E #2 the hands are still "driven as if there were to be no Release at all." But this is POSSIBLE ONLY THROUGH AIMING POINT. So even though the hands have encountered the Pulley they are still being driven in a Straight Line fashion but there motion is now circular. So maybe this is why the arrow in 10-24-E #2 is pointing at the hands?

and Per 6-N-0 . . .

The earlier in the Downstroke the Release occurs, the larger, longer and slower the Release Arc will be for both Clubhead and Hands. Other things being equal, this will require higher Hand Speed to produce yardages equivalent to that of the short quick arc of Maximum Delay. This involves Angular Speed which is measured by the number of degrees of an Arc through which the motion moves per second. From Release to Impact is just so many degrees of travel – at the Left Shoulder and/or at the Left Wrist. Doubling the travel time (for instance) halves the travel rate. Also see 2-P and 7-23.
The smaller the Release Arc (Endless Belt Pulley - constant Hand Speed) the faster the Right Elbow must straighten and the faster there will be "Extension" (Lever Assemblies 2-P) and "Overtaking" (6-F #3 Accumulator) until the Right Arm becomes straight. All without affecting The Travel Rate of the Endless Belt."

Denny here's something I found . . .
 

And posted a while back . . . This may be relevant to our discussion too.

http://theserver.theschool.columbia....s_pulleys.html

Check this out for more on Pulley stuff.

5. Decreasing Pulley Speed

Main Idea: If you use a small pulley wheel to drive a large pulley wheel, the large one will turn slower.

Additional Information: With this model, we have a pulley with a small driver wheel and a large follower wheel. It's really hard to make a wheel like the big one turn - it would take a lot of force. But with a smaller wheel, we can use a process called gearing down to help. Gearing down decreases speed but increases force. Since it's easy to turn a small wheel at a fast speed, we use it to move the large one. A small driver wheel makes a large follower wheel turn more slowly. Since this is a pulley model, both wheels turn in the same direction.

8. Gearing Up

Main Idea: If you use a large gear to drive a small gear, the small one will turn faster.

Additional Information: Here we see a large driver gear and a small follower. We can move the small gear pretty fast on our own, but we can use a process called gearing up to move it even faster. Gearing up increases speed, but decreases force. A good example of a gearing-up system in real life is a 10-speed bike - when you shift into 10th gear, you turn a large gear with the pedals, which drives a small gear attached to the rear wheel. For this model, one turn of the 24-tooth driver produce three turns of the 8-tooth follower. This ratio of 1:3 is called the gearing up ratio

10. Increasing Pulley Speed

Main Idea: If you use a large pulley wheel to drive a small pulley wheel, the small one will turn faster.

Additional Information: In this pulley model we have a large driver wheel and a small follower. We can move the small wheel pretty fast on our own, but these pulleys use a process called gearing up to move it even faster. Gearing up increases speed, but decreases force. A large driver wheel makes a small follower wheel turn faster. However, unlike gears, in this pulley model both wheels turn in the same direction.

This was built with Lego's. I reckon you could raid junior's box and build you some different pulleys to see what happens. Also . . . if the belt is crossed up. The wheels move in opposite directions.

more ambiguity ?
 

12piece,

the ambiguity i was refering to is between that of the straight line delivery PATH and the straight line delivery LINE and its relation to the aiming point foward, or aiming point aft of the ball.

it would be easy to think that both straight lines (PATH and LINE)are foward or behind the ball depending on the aiming point. especially when he says in 7-23,"... a straight line wheel track motion (rather than its rotation) toward and on through the ball, or through the aiming point."

but mr. kelley defines the aiming point in the 6th edition as being on the delivery line. so it sounds like the straight line effort is on the inclined plane OUT (angle of approach) to the aiming point and not to an aiming point DOWN (angle of attack)in FRONT of or BEHIND the ball.

and he says in a very abstract passage in 6-e-2 in the 7th edition about the endless belt, "... because both of those lines represent the true delivery paths and move -physically- directly at the point on the ball through which the angle of approach passes even with the aiming point procedures."

this again sounds like the delivery paths and delivery lines intersect at the ball.regardless of the length of the straight line portion of the belt.

it might make more sense(?) if we read the passage in 7-23 about the line delivery path to mean, " a straight line... toward and on through the ball, or through the aiming point (the point of the release, on the straight line delivery path to the ball,influenced by the handspeed and clubshaft length to get pp#3 to its impact fix location )."