Does the Spine Angle stay the same throughout the entire motion of a Full Stroke ?
 

What do you think?...cast your votes

State your facts and or opinions behind your vote....


Remember this a Full Stroke question!!!!

I picked the last one....gut feeling. (and it esp. makes sense with a cross-line hip slide)

If your Head remains steady, and your Feet planted, and your Hips move left or right, then your spine angle changes.

Itsa hunch!

But...trajectory changes require adjustments in lateral bending between sternum and stable head,and slopes require adjustments in the lower part of the spine for stability,
ball flight changes utilize waist bend adjustments,
power, lag pressure require rotational differences.

On the right track??

I choose 2 . Because i feel that the trailing leg/knees is a thrust board, at the end of the backswing the thrustboard "readied" the momentum for your pivot to thrust(slide forward) in the start up. The spine angle should not shift much or at all in the backswing. even though your hip turn excessively, your spine angle should not differ much.

However in the downswing. an axis tilt is required to move the shoulder down plane. Thus its the only time that the spine shift occur.

However It is possible for the spine to be moved in the backswing or through swing. Like for example if the trailing knee straightens during the backswing. if that the case you will have a hint of reverse pivot.

Does the spine angle remain the same throughout the entire motion of a full stroke? I think not. The spine angle alters with axis tilt induced by hip motion which Tomasello contends is caused by lowering the right shoulder. Therefore #2.

Which plane?
 

I feel that down the line the spine angle should remain the same but not face on.

He must be talking about down the line tho, no?

Cause we all know about Axis Tilt....

...

I don't think Homer (for example) ever talked about "maintaining your spine angle" tho....

Really... At first glance...perhaps....maybe looking at it from a different perspective might help to reevaluate....

Which Plane?


All 3 Planes...Lateral(frontal),Anteroposterior(sagittal ), and Transverse(horizontal)

What in the world just happened. . .

Here we go...
 

Another LBG first.

I'm not going to "touch" this one.
Seriously though, the plane descriptions are helpful. I think.:doh:

Bagger

He wouldn't have to if the head remains steady and the eyes are fixed on the ball. The eyes would, as Lynn teaches, monitor any movement off the ball.

Homer does write about the four snares- bobbing being one of them.

But what Annika will explain is that while the head remains steady- the spine adjusts itself during the pivot.

AND... you would never know it until you see/understand how this study explains what the spine does in a pivot. Another notch in our development of knowing what the golf swing is all about.

Get big chested !:)

The 4 sections change. Something to do with Pitch, Yaw and Roll, if I remember one of Annikans earlier posts correctly.
The spinal column is rotating in a diagonal or oblique plane which is a combination of those great pics!.

Correction.- Axis of a diagonal or oblique plane.

My vote is for #4.

I think from down the line view many like to draw a straight line to represent the spine and its angle. And I think, no real knowledge that although that is nice and maintaining the angle from down the line seems to make sense to me, the spine is not a straight line and in order to accomodate rotation and shifting, parts must be in motion.

All time great post
 

I'd vote this into the all time greatest post on this forum! I've gotta stop laughing to catch my breath!:laughing9

I think he said if you have an apple you can cut it three ways.

Spine
 

The way I understand this is... there ideally is little, if any change in the angle of the TORSO when one is bent over the ball, and throughout the Stroke. There is no BOB or SWAY. The different parts of the SPINE(cervical, thoracic, lumbar, sacral)however, DO CHANGE during a swing.

Tiger Woods, and Adam Scott would be obvious examples of this. Their cervical and thoracic angles obviously change from their Address angles, but the overall TORSO angles are very much the same as at Address.

Lagster..Nice Post!!!

Looks like the 4 sections of the spine experiencing changes to maintain a steady pivot center is kickin arse...Wonder why?

Because of your education!!!!.

You let the cat out of the bag too often before the poll. Should've had it before all the Pivot Wars began!!.

annikan- can you please explain how the 4 sections of the spine precisely change in relation to the 3 planes throughout the swing (for eg: by the halfway point in the backswing the cervical has ------ relative to the lateral plane, -------- relative to the sagittal and ------- with respect to the transvere, while the thoracic has ... etc.) to maintain the steady pivot center. thanks.

Let's start with one section at a time.....then later we'll put it all together!!!

1. Neck...Cervical Spine
2. Upper Back...Thoracic Spine
3. Lower Back...Lumbar Spine
4. Pelvis...Sacrum


Which one?


I'd start at one end or the other!!!!

Is #4 what the dude in the picture has going on? Hey dude . . . NICE SACRUM!!!

ok, cervical or sacrum whichever you feel is the better starting point ...

LATERAL SAGITTAL TRANSVERSE

address
startup
backstroke
top
startdown
delivery
release
impact
follow-through
finish

[quote=annikan skywalker]Really... At first glance...perhaps....maybe looking at it from a different perspective might help to reevaluate....

In reality the spine is never in a perfect straight line condition. What I was meaning to convey (and others have subsequently) that the lowest point of the spine and the uppermost point remain in the same place and if a line was drawn through those two points, that would represent the spine angle (someone mentioned torso angle that better represents the idea IMO).

First of all ...we are all built differently than each other....But I fel we should work from the bottom...let's just study the Pelvis and the sacrum first...



Notice the Neutral Postion of the pelvis is approximatley 30 degrees..

Let's first discusst the motion of the pelvic girdle with Anterior Rotation and Posterior Rotation of a NON Golfer...

then let's applly this to a golfer...throughout the next few weeks we will begin to discuss each segment in each plane and it's axis of rotation through each section as suggested by djd...so we will move slowly....so noone gets lost....

Question #1. Anterior Rotation(Forward) of the Pelvis affects the Lumbar Spine Motion and the left and right hip in what manner?

Anterior Rotation Extension of the Lumbar spine....Flexion at the right and left hip respectively.....Anyone know what that looks like..Pick A, B, C, D, or E

Rules of Engagement
 

Rule #1
We will use markers on each of the major joints and draw plane and axis of rotation.(As indicated by the red dots and yellow lines)
Rule #2
We will use a "qualitative approach which describes the motion as opposed to a quantitative approach which is measured to the degree of motion. ( for instance slight amount of flexion rather than 10 degrees of flexion)
Rule #3
Different types of stroke patterns have similar but in some cases different movements
Rule #4
We will work through this one segment and section at a time
Rule #5
I do not have All the answers...So if there are any experts in the field of Kinesiology or similar field...feel free to contribute insight...


Most important rule...let's have some fun

So let's look closer...

Here's the rule



Apply the rule

Angles
 

Sam's PELVIC ANGLE appears to be about the same as the CLUBSHAFT ANGLE. His EYES appear to be on an angle where they can easily locate the ball.

I will guess C.

A is slight
B is modedrate
C is excessive...



Get It?


Nice work yipped and lagster..

Are there book photos that apply this rule?

DRW

Book photos as in TGM?...Using the joints as "markers" and drawing the 3 planes of motion including their respective axis of rotation.....NO!

Learning the Rules of Structural Kinesiology?....Yes

Apply the rule



So the golfer performed what motions of each section of the spine(black lines)in what plane(Yellow lines)as defined by the new location of joints(red dots) compared to the above "neutral" posture model?

Make sure you measure the angle between the Torso and the Upper Leg..you'll need it for future analysis...looks like this(>)

Lagster....Now I'm smellin what you're steppin in!


You are absolutely correct here....Many golfers and golf professionals confuse the "Inclination of the Torso" as ...."THE SPINE ANGLE"...Huge mistake..HUGE!!!....I'd agree that while there should be no bobbing or swaying the "Inclination of the Torso" stays relatively stable for a relatively straight shot...

This is the "Inclination of the Torso"



It's not a matter of semantics...because the spine is not located where these markers and these planes intersect...

Very Important...Notice Above...the Neck(Cervical Spine) is moderately flexed forward .....



Contrary look below...



Is the Neck still flexed forward or is it really beginning to lateral bend to the right?

How about the upper torso?...LOOK....LOOK...LOOK!!!

Is Sam still in his waist bend or was the axis of rotation replaced by another axis of rotation and his torso is now rotating, extending and lateral bending?

BTW ...Yes the "Inclination of the Torso" is somewhat sustained...
BUT there are some serious changes going on....STUDY THE SEGMENT ANGLES!!!

Study the Segment Angles of the Torso and the Upper Leg...pay closed attention to the markers...remeber they are red dots!!!

Measure the angles formed by the right shoulder, right hip, right knee at address.....compare the same angles to the right shoulder, right hip and right knee at the End from the rear ..try the same for the left shoulder,left hip, and left lnee....Are they exactly the same? How is it these angles change...? Hey captain obvious ..the legs action influences the Sacral and the Lumbar Movements...then how is this affecting the other segments of the spine? HMMM... To deep for my rudimentary understanding!!!!!

Address:



End:

Clue: The axis of rotation changes at least 3 times not twice or just once




After Impact:

:study: :headbang: :happy3:

Where'd everybody go?.

This is really interesting subject matter. Thanks for the great work Annikan. Your efforts are much appreciated.
Might need to learn a new language first before I can continue!.

Im sitting back and enjoying what anakin has got to say.

Even though im not actively interacting, im following it :)