Concept of Plane ...
 

I'm still very confused about the concept of plane. where can i read it? sorry i had not have a copy of the golf machine, Im ordering one soon. but I need help please meanwhile.

No.1 What is a shaft plane, right arm plane and shoulder plane, which plane a swinger, ( say i would like to follow stuart appleby's model ) should follow in a downswing? I could not find a desired explanation in the forum...

No.2 What is a magic right forearm? I came accross in forum and Yoda explaining about Brian feeling the right forearm , lag, working etc and hitting them a long way .
I can almost relate it. I can remember experiencing such a lag before in some of my shots, somewhat in line with my right forearm and with very little efforts my ball is straight and very long (320 yards) .Unfortunately I only did it a few times ever and could never ever repeat them .. ... Can someone pls explain this concept another way?... i could not grasp it .

Thanks and have a great day !

The club always points directly at a straight plane line unless it is parallel to it. This means the club is always going to be flat against against a flat plane (roof) that allows the sweetspot to go directly into the ball. The plane angle can change but the plane line does not.... {angle of roof becomes steeper or flater yet gutter stays the same)

A straight line relationship to a straight line....

On a more advanced note which might not help out immediately but something to put into your incubator - the plane shifts or pivots around the line of compression through the ball. (Edit: thats through the ball at seperation that isn't quite true either unless its a straightaway flight your after) As most know by now it is the longitudinal center of gravity is what remains onplane. This allows an onplane force to drive the sweetspot directly towards and through the line of compression. The low point plane line will change as the plane adjusts.

Matthew,

Thank you but ..too advanced !!... Orr Ng understand wor pang yao !.


can you use baby steps please ... Dor Ceh !

Plane
 

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Look at the picture beside Mathew's name. That is an INCLINED PLANE. The club(shaft and head) slides up and down that plane.
A PLANE is just a flat surface.

Most people whould probably only putt, chip, or pitch on the plane in the picture. With most people the club will come off that original angle at around waist high on the backswing. At the TOP the club will end up more over your right shoulder, but(ideally) will still be on a plane parallel to the original one.

There are a variety of options coming DOWN(and BACK actually), but many pros shift back down to the original angle at around waist hight on the downswing, and stay on that through impact, and on into the followthrough. At the FINISH, you will come off that original angle again.

Now... there are many plane variations (Jim Furyk, John Daly), but all these guys get back on to a good plane somewhere on the downswing. If you consistently get a good ball flight... it's OK.

Thank you
How about right forearm magic and its relationship with tilt , and plane? ...

The Magic of the Right Forearm -- last paragraph of 7-3.

The Right Forearm Traces (points at) the Plane Line from Release to Impact. The Right Forearm must be in-line with the Clubshaft to do this.

Keeping your Right Wrist Level (4-B-1), by bending and straightening the Right Elbow you can Cock (4-B-2) and Uncock (4-B-3) your Left Wrist.

Clubhead Lag is a different concept.

longitudinal center of gravity <~~ sorry what is this please?

and why swinger use longitudinal acceleration ? not rotation? I thought swinger use rotation because of centrifugal force? QQ

Thank you so much :)!

If you hold the butt end of the club and also hold a string against it with a weight attached by your fingertips - you will find it will travel directly to the sweetspot - This is the longitudinal center of gravity.... - in practical terms it means you always point the sweetspot at a straight line back from the ball - the shaft rotates around the sweetspot and not vise versa.....

The left arm and clubshaft is driven into impact by pivot thrust in the swingers procedure which means the hand will still be turned to the plane until the powers that be rolls the left hand back to vertical ...left arm karate chop - rope handle technique....

Very good and astute question Nuke . . .

First of all to answer this question you must understand the concept of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and the Level Right Wrist.



The Right Forearm Flying Wedge is basically having the Clubshaft and Right FOREARM in the same plane like a javelin thrower. Check the cat out in this pic. See how the javelin and his right forearm could lay on a table if he dropped them down. The table is the PLANE. So in javelin chucking the table(plane of motion) is Vertical. In baseball the plane is Horizontal . . . See how the forearm and bat are in the same plane and could lay on a table?



. . . and golf the Plane is INCLINED . . . like a roof.



See how Lee Buck's Right Forearm and Clubshaft are in the same plane?

So the Magic of the Right Forearm is this. If you go to Impact Fix and have your Right Forearm and Clubshaft in the same plane, you can actually see and feel the Inclined Plane that the club swings upon just by looking at your Right Forearm and where it is pointing. Back Up and In . . . Down Out and Forward.

Very nice
 

Very nice Bucket!:salut: :salut:

Hot and Humid here in California this last week!

Lessons Learned...Lessons Delivered
 

All this is so good it hurts. Hats off to Colonel 12 Piece! :salut:

And can you see -- and FEEL -- the way Lee Trevino is using his Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point (meaty part of the Right Forefinger) to come into the Ball Down Plane from the Inside Out?

Man...we all ought to get together and buy a bunch of these from Ron Watts and hang'em on our practice room walls!

He's got some great pics . . . they ain't cheap though!

Pics are wonderful and reading/learning about the On-Plane Right Forearm leads one to believe that it's The-Only-Way. Once, during a practice session I actually felt the Right Forearm coming though On-Plane and Truly leading the Club into impact. Wow, what a great, powerful, lagging, dragging feeling having the right hand pass in front of you with the clubhead lagging behind and speeding up to get in-line. Ya just know that impact is going to be a wallop. Now, if I can only get it back. I'm resolved to visit the range at hit one-thousand ball with my Right Arm Flying Wedge only. I think one could build an effective and entire Golf Swing solely based the On-Plane Right Forearm Concept. :salut:

Right hand only (right arm flying wedge)
Left hand only (left arm flying wedge)

both hands and both flying wedges = maximum impact support

A great way to learn, begining with your putter, then chip, pitch punch. Click, click, click... bent right wrist, flat left wrist.

There is magic in that forearm - and magic in those flying wedges ;)

Wow....dissapointment on .......

Thanks
 

Ok, kind people of LBG. Thanks again. Feeling wiser and happier.

I think I had more or less grasp the basic concept .(i hope)

Mathew: Took me a while, but after thinking for a day or two. I finally understood what u meant ! thanks. No wonder i have had unwanted slice in my long woods , did not gasp the longitudinal acceleration. Instead im doing the centrifugal throwaway. Very important piece of explanation.

err one more question.. with all these thing encouraging a draw pattern. How do i actually hit a fade? -_-a

No problem :)

Longitudinal acceleration - I perhaps didn't explain it clearly - Im not as gifted as Yoda when it comes to communication....lol If you put your left hand on top of a table (a plane) palm down and move it back and forth keeping the palm down - you are accelerating longitudinally - lenghtwise on the plane.... In the golf stroke it is just the same but on an incline....

At the top of the backstroke the left wrist should be in a position to do a karate chop on the plane line - and then uncock and roll on that line - allow the clubhead overtake the left wrist by means of a rolling left wrist not a bending left wrist...

..but when in the downswing does this karate chop occur?

And let us not forget... 1-L

1-L #11

Clubhead Force and Motion is On Plane at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity (the direction of the motion) and varies with the Speed, Mass and Swing Radius

and

1-L #5

The Clubshaft lies full length on a flat, tilted plane

and

1-L #15

The Club starts up-and-in after "Low Point" but the thrust continues Down Plane during the Follow-Through

Notice that in #11 he is talking about 'the' plane and in #5 he is talking about 'a' plane.

This is a very important difference that really confuses a lot of folks regarding plane.

Add to this...

4-D-1

...It is the hands AND clubhead - not just the clubhead - that define the Plane.

My question has been answered in another thread:
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=3064
#2 Drilling the Correct Downstroke Motion

"The cure is to learn a proper Downstroke. First, make sure your Start Down is On Plane. Do many Start Down Waggles to assure that you are pulling the butt-end of the Club directly toward the Plane Line. Then, take this motion into the Release area, making sure you Uncock and Roll while still driving toward -- not down -- the Plane Line. Finally, complete your Total Motion by Swiveling out of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position) and into the Finish. Make sure the butt-end of the Club points toward the Plane Line as you Finish Swivel."

Thanks

This is an amazing concept. Mathew, this post cleared up alot of fog for me. I still need to put it in my incubator (along with all those other TGM eggs). This makes all those angles and geometry start to have some real purpose. So this is a good reason for a stationary head: to pivot around the line of compression.

Why is it then...
 

That at impact fix when I get my right forearm on plane that my clubface works to an open position at address. I have hit some great shots from here...it just looks different!

Can someone explain to me the difference between down and driving toward?

CW

The incline plane is three dimensional- Down- Out and Through. To stay On Plane all three will feel like One.

If you break them into stations- Down goes the right shoulder and arms, Out goes the clubhead with the turning body and clubhead travels Through the ball On Plane. Of the three- DOWN will always be felt. You can't cheat Down.

Two things . . . 1. the clubface is square to the line of flight at SEPARATION not Impact. So depending upon your selected procedure (swinging or hitting/manipulated hands swinging) and selected Hinge Action . . . your clubface may need to be open to be square at separation.

2. To expand upon the hinging dealie . . . if you use Angled Hinging . . . . the HARDER you are going to hit the ball, the more closed the clubface should be at address. WHY you say? Because with Angled Hinging the clubface is closing AND LAYING BACK. Soooooooo . . . if you are gonna hit it hard or the longer the shot, the LONGER THE BALL IS ON THE CLUBFACE THRU IMPACT . . . AND THE MORE IT IS EFFECTED BY THE LAYBACK . . .AND THE GREATER THE TENDENCY TO FADE. The opposite is true for Horizontal Hinging . . . the Longer the shot the more OPEN you set the clubface . . . because it is CLOSING ONLY.

If you take your grip at fix and take the above into account you can make the necessary adjustments to effect the "on-plane" right forearm thingie.

What am it?
 

I would like an answer to this too . . . DOWN implies VERTICAL motion VERTICAL in relation to the ground . . . Where as DOWN PLANE implies an ANGLED LINE. So which term is the most appropriate for people to get DOWN or DOWN PLANE?

So if you were looking at rectangle (Plane) is DOWN a straight line VERTICAL TO THE GROUND or is it an ANGLED LINE?

Okay but,
 

I quoted from text that Lynn posted, not sure if its from the book. I understand the inclined plane and all that but in the passage there is a distinction made between "down" and "toward".

I took it to mean 'driving toward the plane line' but not 'down the plane line' hence I can't discern the difference.


CW

A concept
 

Search for the Perfect Swing claims Kel Nagle is in a perfect in plane position above. The ball, #4 Pressure Point, Left arm, hands, shaft and clubhead appear in a straight line.
The B photo shows the shaft and clubhead well off plane.

You are driving the grip of the club in a circular motion so at start down with e.g. drag loading, the direction the end of the grip is pointing cannot be towards the ball but only towards the plane line. Strictly speaking any applied force is tangental. When you get into the release area you the driving down the plane line to impact. That how I see it.

Pictures
 

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These are nice pictures, however, with any pictures, or video dealing with PLANE, the camera positions(angle and height), must be exactly right, and the LINE must be drawn in the correct place.

Cut a circle in a sheet of plastic stretched onto a rectangular flat surface. Prop it up on the angle of your clubshaft. get inside there. You will start to see what Mr. Kelley is talking about.

You can prop the plane up different angles, and it can still work. Actually, as long as the clubshaft and sweetspot get on the plane angle a little before you get to IMPACT, many variations can work.

You can in theory, stay on one angle the whole time. Most people, however, have some shifting of angles. Jim Furyk, shifts angles very obviously. Tiger Woods, has a less obvious shift.

The Plane is discussed in 10-6 and 10-7 in TGM.

Is that many variations of Plane Angle can work in the one swing? and do all these Plane Angle Variations hinge like a door on the Low
Point Plane Line during the swing?

Which Plane Angle Variation is Steve Elkington using in these photos and is it usual for the hands to move so far downplane from the Address
position?
Why does he not shank here?



Thanks lagster.

Old Swing
 

I believe these pictures are from before Mr. Elkington changed his swing. He did pretty well with this one.

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the changes he has made in the last few years. I believe he is working with Mr. Plummer and/or his colleague.

Here Mr. Elkington appears to set up on a HANDS PLANE, with the right forearm off plane. He then shifts to a steeper plane at the TOP or END, probably a Turned Shoulder Plane.

On the Downswing... it's a little hard to tell by those pictures, but he either stays on the Turned Shoulder, or Shifts down to the Elbow Plane by Impact. The right forearm appears to be off plane at the next to last picture, but may get on later.

If the camera was not on plane, things can appear to be as they are not.