Pivot - Active or Passive
 

By talking to various Ai about Pivot controlled Hands and Hands controlled Pivot

Or

Pivot Power Hand Controlled Pivot

A - Some people look at it as a bearing (Hands controlled Pivot). When the bearing become rusty, then the pivot stop rotating -Passive

b - Some people look at it as a electric Motor (Pivot Controlled Hands) When you stop supplying power to the motor, then the pivot stop rotating - Active

Or we have to look at the pivot as a mixture of both
Let the hands to guide it before Impact, and have to really work it during impact interval?

The hands aren't educated until they control the pivot. Control! Not replace or substitute. The hands train or designs the pivot- its HIP MOTION -so it can deliver the hands to the ball without bending the plane line.

You want to use the pivot more- go right ahead- it's trained. You want to use the arms more- go right ahead- they're trained. When the mind is in the hands, on the downswing, it is pretty hard for the pivot to be the boss.

Great post 6b

Just because you have a very active pivot doesn't mean you are using "pivot controlled hands." It simply means you are using a lot more pivot to whallop the ball.

if you are TRULY using pivot controlled hands then you are simply moving the pivot back and forth with no regard for where your hands/arms/etc are and just relying on the pivot to make your hands to what they are supposed to do.

When this question comes up I always refer back to the video of Homer swinging in the gallery. I figure Homer knew what he wanted to do in his own swing.

I agree jim_0068.

A true pivot controlled hand procedure negates the active use of the hands.

These Guys Are Good!
 

Really good stuff, Mike. Thanks! :)

Pivot
 

So, I presume you all look at Pivot as a BEARING rather then it is a Electric Motor

Now, another related question. I always believe that Hitting the ball further is all about be able to generate more speed.

Now, Pivot is a massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly, therefore if I am correct Pivot is not giving any speed but only the hands are (Endless Belt effect)
So could I have a firm sort of defination about Pivot Power, according to the previous debate, pivot is just a Bearing and have minimum Kinetic Energy. But if we look at it from a different Angle the inside moving the outside. So is the pivot a Electric Motor or It is a Bearing?

Please really give some precise thought to it, rather then just answer the question from the book.:(

Pivot without the Hands and Hands without the Pivot is like using a water pistol to hunt for quails (sorry, I could not resist!).

You need to marry the Pivot with the Hands and that is the whole foundation of TGM - Pivot Powered Hand Controlled Pivot.
Too many people do not understand this relationship between the Hands and the Pivot and thus TGM degenerates into a "Hand" camp and a "Pivot" camp.

Think of the Pivot in swinging as a merry-go-round. The faster the merry-go-round spins, the faster your speed when you are "thrown-off"

What are the Pivot components?

They are:

Pivot
Shoulder Turn
Hip Turn
Hip Action
Knee Action
Foot Action

The Shoulders are the farthest (from the center) and the fastest moving components of the pivot and they transmit the motion of the pivot to the arms.

Power is transmitted to the hands and it is not independently generated by the hands.

Lazy (But Bossy) Hands
 

Right on, Comdpa. Thanks!

KE=1/2Mass x Velocity Squared
 

Oz,
I've highlighted the part of your post that I am addressing-
Now, another related question. I always believe that Hitting the ball further is all about be able to generate more speed.

I'm not very good with equations and physics - so I might be a duck in hunting season on this one but it's not just speed that's required to hit the ball further. It's the formula for Kinetic Energy that's important- KE=1/2mass x Velocity squared

So the greater the pivot lag the greater the mass is rotating around creating the following two examples where the faster velocity of the clubhead in example two produces a much lower kinetic energy amount - due to the lower mass.
Example 1: 1/2 x 180= 90 x (50 x 50) = 225,000
Example 2: 1/2 x 90 = 45 x (60 x 60) = 162,000

So in the first example you've got less velocity 50 but more mass 180 and a total kinetic energy applied to the ball of 225,000

Second example you've got less mass 90 but an increased velocity of the clubhead of 60 squared, creating a total of kinetic energy applied to the ball of 162,000.

So for a practical example, if you throw the club away on the downswing- it starts to swing around a much shorter radius (left wrist vs the left shoulder) and because of that the speed in mph increases significantly but since you've got little mass in the clubhead itself and you've added nothing to it- the kinetic energy is very low.

I'm sure someone can verify or refute the principle involved here- and maybe even be able to restate the equation with the appropriate unit labels, etc.

Oz- I know this just addresses one issue in your post- you may still have others.

HAHA...That is good...

Jimmy Mac and the X-Factor
 

Did any of you boys see the Academy Live thing Monday with McLean? I have to read my boy two comic books before he crashes every night. The Hulk was gettin' ready to smash Benjamin Grimm, so I couldn't hear what ole Jimmy had to say. But he had some computer thingie workin'. Somehow teaching people about the x-factor .. . Pivot Lag. He was saying something about all this research he'd done with tour players.

Did you guys catch any of what he was pimping?

Mike "O" how would you teach somebody to have more Pivot Lag? and would you say that more Pivot Lag would translate to more KE?

Muchas!

B

Hook and pivot
 

Thanks for the info 12PB & mike O, just want to talk about our computer.

Our computer is so clever that if we are not be able to sort out our hands it will stop the pivot to function properly.

The finish swivel could be the key of getting our pivot to function, either passive or active, without the ability to roll the clubface, our computer will not allow us to rotate our pivot.

Be able to rotate the pivot will help to move the low point further to the front, and be able to roll the clubface will be able to instruct our computer to allow the pivot to turn.

So either the pivot is a bearing or e-motor, is not that important. What my believe is

more pivot will help you to slice the shot
more hand roll will help you to hook the shot.

We can only work our pivot, once we understand how to control our clubface.

Please correct my thought if I am wrong?

Pivot Delivered Hand Controlled Pivot
 

It is true that the Pivot provides Pivot Lag and is also the massive rotor that generates Angular Momentum for Throw Out Action for the Swinger. In that sense, we can view the Pivot as providing power. However, my understanding of Golf Stroke increased when I viewed the main function of the Pivot as Delivery rather than generating power.

Pivot Delivered Hand Controlled Pivot.

So who is responsible for power then?

Edit: after re-reading my post, I could foresee lots of opportunity for misinterpretation. Lets hope not too many will arise, but I will attempt to tackle them when they come.

Dude . . . this is pretty good! Could you expand on this a bit. I think you are on to something here. I have often wondered why Swivel was a big deal since the ball is gone . . . so it has to be an intention thing right? So this would translate from the brain cell(s - plural for some) to the hands to the pivot?

Could you please go deeper my friend? I think you got it teased up to the boat . . . let's set the hook and get it in!

To me, the pivot reacts/responds actively to the action of the hands.

Again, to experience what the pivot does while reacting to the hands, pull the club held stationary by someone toward the ball, or bend (push) the club with the clubhead against something stationary, by the hands. The harder the hands action (or your intention), the stronger the pivot's reaction. Feel the resistance/drag of the club (club lag) and the muscle tension all over the body (pivot lag) when a dynamic balance is reached. This is, what I believe, "Hands-controlled/reacting/responding-pivot".

In contrast, do the same thing to the club yet with the intention of pulling the hands with the pivot action. In this case, the pivot leads and the hands follow/react. See how the pivot and arms are pulled or dragged by the resistance of the stationary club and the absence of pivot lag. The harder the pivot action, the poorer the body rigidity. This is, what I believe, "Pivot-controlled/powered/dragged/following-hands", or the "merry-go-around" analogy (sorry, comdpa). There is nothing wrong with it in terms of moving the club, except a lot more "timing" is involved and a lot less "stability/compact" the "machine" is, and, hence, demands more practice and susceptible to pressure situation. It feels kind of snappy and may generate a lot more speed, yet it's also a "throwaway" of the "thrust" or "effective mass".

Distinctions
 

Tong,

Excellent distinction here between the mechanical and the procedural!

Mechanically: The pivot lag/ pivot definitely adds power to the stroke

Procedural Ideal: You don't crudely focus more on the pivot to get more power- that's pivot controlled hands- when you're trying to move the pivot.

Interim Process: This is a common phase- process that one works through to get to a refined golf movement- and it IS A PROCESS- no doubt. So, I'm not saying that at certain times one wouldn't work only on their pivot, pivot lag, etc- they would and you do, but ideally you need to tie that stuff back in with your "intention" of moving the club. And the more you can change the pivot, pivot lag via the intention and hands, i.e. proper loading, pressure point locations, etc, etc. the better.

So on the Procedural stage- focusing on creating power with your pivot- regardless of how good or bad your alignments are- is say the 5 year into the game stage. Moving to more of the perspective that pivot provides delivery, is the 10, to 15, to 20+ year stage of development of your golf swing. All your alignments have to be much better, much more integrated, in order for less effort to provide the proper power. At the 5 year stage you need that pivot effort to overcome - "THE MESS". And then some never understand and never move forward- they never understand how that's not the way to swing it- after all "it doesn't work" or "I don't get any power if I don't focus on the body/pivot!"

Of course, the years used above are just crude examples- showing the principle. Some move through those stages faster than others.

Hand or Pivot? Can't Decide?
 

Thanks Mike. I'm always feeding off you. And you've just made me more hungry!

Your "crude example" may scare some people off -- if I knew it would take me 20+ years before I achieve substantial integration of the Pivot -- I wouldn't have started playing this game!

Lets explore this "if you want to hit the ball further, then you must work harder with your pivot" mentality. As mentioned previously, focusing on the Pivot and its speed/movement/positions leads to a Pivot Controlled Hands procedure. Now the player learns about Hand Controlled Pivot (maybe through reading the book, or learning from an AI or information on forums). So he tries to hit everything with his Hands, without giving any thought to what his Body (Pivot) is doing. After a while, his Stroke may even look quite unorthodox, a very handsy swing with very little movement of the shoulders and hips. A pro or AI notices this and instructs the student to use more Pivot. So the student goes back to a Pivot Controlled Hands procedure, primarily focusing on making a bigger turn, getting the Right Shoulder on Plane, the Hips has turned the correct amount, everything is moving Parallel to the selected Delivery Line etc. After a while (20+ years;)) the student realises that Hand Controlled Pivot doesn't really mean hitting with the Hands only.
The breakthrough comes when the student learns that it really means hitting with the Hands together with its Lag Pressure Point(s), which is felt in the Hands. So now when the student 'hits with the Hands' his brain just will not allow him do that unless he also feels Lag Pressure in his Hands. But how the heck is he going to get max Lag Pressure? Only by initiating the Downstroke with the lower body (the feet, then the ankles, then the knees, etc.). But the student isn't thinking about all these different components. He's only thinking about his Hands, and even though he is initiating the Downstroke with his Hands, his Hands just won't start down unless it feels the necessary Lag Pressure. And it can only feel this if the Pivot has done its job properly.


Moving on...
I find it surprising (and irritating) that there are some extremely good players using Pivot Controlled Hands. Now, I haven't mastered the art of seeing whether someone is using Pivot Controlled Hands or not, but can you please share your thoughts on who you think some of these players are on Tour?

Hands controlled Pivot
 

Tongz
Good post Tongz, plain English, easier for me to understand. both pivot and hands got to be trained.

12PB

Spoke to Comdpa about some drill, and he was recommended chipping with Cross Grip. I was trying it myself, and I can only chip with it. Correct me if I am wrong, Cross Grip will give you a Slice Tendency, and therefore if we are using it as a drill hitting 7 iron, it will help us to learn how to swivel. LEARN TO ROTATE THE CLUB FACE

Obviously some Ai will not require you to do your finish swivel, particular if you are doing angle and vertical hinging shot. Even though if you are a SWINGER, the right arm is just as important. You can swivel the clubface with either hand and not just the left hand. (Left arm always swinging, right arm always driving or SWINGING)

Some pivot Ai will totally disagreed to the above, as they believe that (Once you have your hands educated) the pivot do all the work for you. Yes, but you have to train your hand first.

First learn to hook the ball ( At that stage you might have to work a little bit with the ball position, and it will move the machine back a little bit). Keep training your hands. Our brain is so clever that if you hands is not train ( Not be able to rotate the clubface) The pivot will not help us to move the ball position forward (Rotate).

There are other points will help us to achieve the above, but is rather natural for most TGMers anyway. At address, we try to setup for zero shift, which our left wrist position higher (between uncock and level position), use more of the elbow to lift the club up..

Everyone have different feeling of clubface rotation, some people feel like they are doing it right at the top, and some are later. I think we just have to experiment with it. But certainly what Compda recommend CROSS GRIP CHIPPING is certainly something help to teach our hands to rotate.

Wait up, Wait up....

Kenny, I advised you to chip with a 10-1-E Cross Handed Grip because its "main feature is that Right Arm Action cannot overpower the Flat Left Wrist..."

That was my only intention...to teach you how to maintain a FLAT LEFT WRIST.

So are you coming to Singapore or not?? :D

Yes, Yes, Yes but this is what I was told by Paul after our chat.... Roll Roll Roll.... Watching the ball slice with a (Full Swing )7 iron with 10-1-E, and learn.

I am not sure of the context in which you guys spoke, so no comments.

Hand Controlled Pivot?
 

I'd say that visually, that it could be a little dicey determining if someone was hand controlled pivot or not. You never know what individual or series of movements in one's golf movement they have made automatic. That is you could be priimarily aware of just moving your hands and you may automatically with that thought and awareness have integrated a full shoulder turn with little independent arm motion- looks pivot controlled but is hand controlled.

The basic distinction here is - Are you primarily (not completely)-( i.e. not blocking out the body feel, awareness- or preventing it by not moving it) focusing on where and what the hands are doing- as they tell you what the club is doing, while having the body fully support that movement in both a geometric sense and also a physics sense - or Are you focusing on what the body is doing and the hands and club are somewhere in the background - doing something- who knows exactly. In the Hand Controlled Procedure- you start and stay with the basic concept and then work on having the body movement fully support that- it's a project completed over time. In the Pivot Controlled Procedure- it's a dead end in that - it is what you focus on- it is your procedure- you don't really build on it.

Back to the question- and an answer. You could also have someone that is pivot controlled on the backswing and hand-controlled on the downswing. You could have a player drift in and out of a hand controlled procedure and then not realizing all the issues- drift into a pivot controlled procedure.

With all of that said- Generally speaking or in theory the rofessional golf movements that have the quiet pivots, the supporting pivots, the efficient looking pivots- are hand controlled and the other ones are not. Again, you could have a beginner with a hand controlled pivot- that has a golf movement that is completely ungolf like- that doesn't support the on-plane motion of the club or the hands. Hand control doesn't do anything magically by itself- it's more like the christmas tree- you've got to have it in order to hang ornaments- it's the basic.

I'd say someone like Mark Calcavechia looks like a pivot controlled procedure. But it's not so important who is or who isn't- it all comes down to the most important approach- and that's "WHAT AM I DOING AND IS IT THE BEST THING I CAN DO TO EVENTUALLY SHOOT LOWER SCORES FOR MYSELF!"

Awesome information
 

An absolutely fantastic point!

This is gold. Golfers need this information no matter what level they're at. It's so fundamental, all students who are serious should be made aware of this right from the start.

More discussion needed regarding the last sentence, "...and then not realizing...". I thought the nature of the Hand Controlled Pivot is that you are aware of your Hands and what they're doing by definition.

That's the thing people have to understand, just because you're using Hand Controlled Pivot doesn't mean you'll get great alignments, but it's still the correct procedure that should be used while one is making changes in their Stroke.

Answers
 

Tong,
Thanks for seeing the value!

As far as your question:
Tong Quote:
"More discussion needed regarding the last sentence, "...and then not realizing...". I thought the nature of the Hand Controlled Pivot is that you are aware of your Hands and what they're doing by definition."

My point was that these guys (PGA Touring Pro's)- and I know that I can't speak for all of them - so this is a generalization and my assumption, - are unaware of the nature of a hand controlled pivot --

( on the wider level- goal orientation and purpose in regards to any movement, i.e. it's important to see the larger movement theory that validates the "hand controlled pivot theory in golf)

-- many are great athletes- and have been really good at a really young age. For them, "they play by feel"- it's not something that they analyze- in fact, that "analyzing" usually doesn't help them that much given their level of play already and the poor quality of information that they and we all have to work with. When it comes to the study of movement and the knowledge to improve one's performance- we're at the very beginning, rudimentary stages.

So for them - they may fade in and out of a hand controlled pivot- since most of their movement is not really consciously created or identified- therefore if they go back to figure out a problem in their movement- they don't know the steps that got them there - so they can't trace it. That's the problem that they have!, the disadvantage to "having talent" and "building a talent". It's probably one of the few problems they do have!, given their ability to put the ball in the hole.