Average Joe
 

How good can Average Joe be? Let's assume enough physical talent to play a high school sport. Decent eye hand coordination . . .

We Drinkers of the Koolaid are armed with the absolute BEST information in golf - G.O.L.F. What can we do with this information?

The average handicap is stagnant at best. Let's say that the LBG/TGM Revolution's momentum continues to swell. How good can Joe Average be let us assume 2 hours of practice time, 1 18 hole round, and 1 9 hole escape per week.

Hogan said that the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter. What do we say?

Can we develop a "scoring" template?

Any ideas?

B

Joe Duffer's Potential
 

I don't know what the rest of we will say.

But I do know what Homer Kelley said.

And he said:

"If you can keep your Left Wrist Flat through Impact, you will break 80 tomorrow."

In fact, that is exactly what he did in 1941. After only five months of golf, he shot a 77 on a championship course. His book -- The Golfing Machine® -- was born because he could not explain how he did it. Nor could he find anyone else who could. And because he didn't know, he immediately reverted to his old, high-handicap form. The "sweeping" Feel he had that day soon became a distant memory.

Sixteen years later, he discovered the Flat Left Wrist. Only then did he remember what the pro had told him:

"Semi-lock your left wrist through impact."

That is what Homer had done those many years before.

And a 77 is what he got.

Flat Left Wrist, anyone?

The Master Essential
 

Boy do I agree.
Assuming you are lined up to your target and you know your distances.

What is the scoring value of hitting the fairway?
What is the scoring value of hitting greens?
What is the scoring value of chipping, pitching and bunker play within Birdie radius of the pin?
What is the scoring value of an on-line putt?

My opinion, that flat left wrist is the Master Essential!

How difficult is it on every shot?
Witness the need for corrective Golf Instruction and training aids worldwide.

The Momentus, Tic Tac Wrist, Impact Bag, Medicus, Swingsetter, etc. All of them can be measured as effective or ineffective by their ability to correct a bent left wrist.

Put another way, it is difficult to keep a flat left wrist off plane and/or without lag pressure.

Bagger

Why is it then all of these instructors and training aids rarely even mention the Flat Left Wrist?

"Makes you wanna go, hmmmmm...."

Guess I should have mentioned, Golf Instruction can be measured as effective or ineffective by the same.

Thanks bud. We need to get out and play sometime! Like...let's set it up!

I know you are waiting on me...;)

Bagger MIA
 

I'm sorry....who ARE you? :confused:

Is it because the Left Wrist can only become Flat and remain Flat because of the Right Wrist Bend? It doesn't Flatten on its own.
Little Independence in the Flying Wedges, I guess.

Makin' It Happen
 

Good idea, Colonel,

What would you like to see in the TGM template for Game improvement?

How good can Joe Average get and how much time will it take?

From 25,000 hours on the tee:

Getting to make a better swing and look like a golfer - 15min. to 2hours

Breaking 100 regularly (if you never have) - less than one year

Break 90 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 3 years

Break 80 regularly (starting from 100+) - less than 5 years

Assuming an average condition man 35-55, five lessons a year, one bucket a week in season, 20+ rounds per season.

And a good FITTED set of clubs.

what about...
 

Brian,

How about a 5 handicap trying to get to scratch? :D

Been There...Done That
 

Good stuff from a man who knows. Thanks, Brian.

------------------------------------------------------

"You know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be."

-- The Ballad of John and Yoko
John Lennon

STANDING O from BUCKET!!!!
 

Yoda and Brian!

Now this precisely the kind of OPTIMISM I am looking for! On other forums when this question is alluded to some teachers are saying "Well students are A.D.D. they'll never get it." It's frustrating to hear this kind of poor mouthing. I mean come on! We are armed with THE BEST information period bar none in golf!

I'm glad that our two FEARLESS LEADERS brimming with confidence are also FEARLESS BELIEVERS in what they teach! Good to see that the brass is willing to EAT THEIR OWN DAWG FOOD!!!

I'm in total agreement that Average Joe can be turned into the Swan! Most are out hear trying to break their glass ceiling 90, 80 or 70. At the end of the day you gotta write down a number. Glad that you have enough belief in your info, ability to teach and ultimately BELIEF IN YOUR STUDENT. Cause if the teacher don't believe, how can the student?

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Stab at at Template
 

From my perspective, most Average Joes (like me) have a limited amount of time. G.O.L.F. competes with the boss, the nag, and the brats. Even though I'm the never going to be the posterboy for organization, I think we need to give Joe a STRUCTURE to operate in rather than just pounding balls for an hour.

I think the first step would be to have some sort of Strength and Weakness Analysis. The Analysis could be measured on BOTH Shot Making (including chipping/pitching/putting) AND the Integrity of One's Critical Alignments. So we get Playing and the Alignment Baselines. From there figure out where to focus the limited amount of practice time.

Then break it down into Full Shots, Pitch, Chip and Putt. Maybe come up with tests to track your progress.

So maybe if you can't hit X number of Pitch Shots in a 6 foot circle then you work on the following Y.

Or maybe if you can't hit chip shots without bending your Left Wrist you do X (dowel work/impact bag/mop dragging) etc.

I would LOVE to hear others thoughts on this . . .

Thanks!

Bucket

When You Wish Upon A Star
 

Colonel 12 Piece ,

I address this issue in a soon-to-be-published interview with Australia's largest golf website, www.iseekgolf.com. Stay tuned!

Two examples of what can happen:

Worst golfer I ever taught, A.D.

He could not have possibly broke 113 on a 113 slope course (national mean).

He took 47 lessons from October 1990 to April 1991.

On a par 70 course, he shot 89, putting poorly.


A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months. His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.

He took 4 lessons a wek for 4 months and practiced a LOT.

He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.

On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.


It CAN be done.

The Bottom Line Objective
 

For most this is the HOLY GRAIL! What is the Manzella Process on this 5 Year Plan? Or is that Double Top Secret?

If you can produce a Book/DVD's on the Manzella Process to get people there in 5 years, you will be the richest man in golf. We can talk Bent Plane Lines and Pressure Points all day long, but at the end of the day . . . this is what people WANT!

Two examples of what can happen:

Worst golfer I ever taught, A.D.

He could not have possibly broke 113 on a 113 slope course (national mean).

He took 47 lessons from October 1990 to April 1991.

On a par 70 course, he shot 89, putting poorly.


A tennis pro came to me. Brian can you get me to break 80 in 4 months?

His lowest score in only about 10 total rounds ever was 98.

He took 4 lessons a week for 4 months and practiced a LOT.

He had 5 tries to break 80 to win his bet with a pal.

On a tough par-72, 7000 yds., he shot 76 in the third round.


It CAN be done.

The Right Forearm Smash
 

For decades now, tennis players have been told that their stiff-wristed, right forearm smashes are ruinous in golf.

Homer Kelley always maintained otherwise.

And now Brian has presented us with this proof positive.

Sweet! What was the recipe for success? 76 on 7000 yarder is nothing to sneeze at for anybody not on TV on Sunday.

Details . . . Need Details . . .

short game, short game, short game....

visualize every shot and don't hit it until you have 'seen' it go in. Watch the image in 'real time'.

Another point I should have made:

Both of these occured in 1991.

I teach 45,678 times better now than then.


More recent....13 year old came to me in September. He had never broke 90 in a real tournament.

Didn't own a driver, played with a junk set of ladies clubs.

Couldn't hit a good chip shot.

7 months later, shot 73 in tournaments—twice.


As far as any details go.....hmmm......I might have to do a video :)

Brian, Fire up the camcorder
 

Fire up the camcorder and get in the backyard. We are ready to learn.

Have a great holiday season.

Get'er done!
 

Brian's right, it can be done. I love to get new students with small goals. Because of previous experience with instruction, they ask, "do you think I could get a little better? I shoot in the low 100's and I'd like to break 100. Do you think we can do that?" ARE YOU KIDDING?!?!?! Lets shoot for the 70's!
Any instructor can help to shave a few strokes. I've witnessed things that I never believed possible in TGM instructors. I've been around some of the greatest teachers in the business as a student and as an observer, and unfortunately to most I'd never return. It's a shame that some don't even understand simple geometry. If you’re willing to learn, you must be willing to accept new ideas. Those ideas have to measured against your present belief systems. As new ideas abound, TGM continues to gain the strongest hold in my beliefs. The information is irrefutable.
I've told many of you about one of my greatest juniors. If you hit a drive and you see the whites of Yoda's eyes, you know you've busted it. :) This junior is 15 now, but started with me at 14. He is a great athlete, and played everything but golf. I gave him his first lesson, and in 8 months he shot 33 for 9 holes. After 14 months, he shot 67 for 18 holes. He'll be playing #1 on his high school team as a sophomore. He's so young in golf, I can't wait to see the things he'll be able to accomplish. When he wins a Tour event, I hope he'll give a shout out to Homer. :)

A Nice Guy Who Will Finish First
 

Ted speaks the truth. And this young man is as humble as he is talented. He's a refreshing change of pace in the often cocksure world of junior golf.

What I have observed is that the 'average joe' will not improve long term at least unless there is one critical factor. The willingness and ability to adhere to the instruction given.

No matter how good the instructor is, if the student doesn't commit, success is not to be. Kind of making a golf stroke, you need to commit to it else all who knows, it might work, it probably won't.

A sidenote, the short game fix is a bandaide in most cases. Cause if you have poor basics with the short game, you can get some good results, but it won't hold up and it certainly isn't going to help the rest of your game. I have seen more flippers get away with it in the short game only to see the same moves in the rest of the game that kills them.

B,

You have to do a video!!!!!

We need it YESTERDAY!

Lay down the gauntlet.

B

Another of the BRASS chimes in with more CONFIDENCE!!!! This is what golf needs!!!

The common denominators of these BREAKTHROUGH MAKEOVERS must be domcumented. . .

I'm LOVING THIS THREAD!!!

Ok ok ok....

what do you want on this video 12 piece.

Manzella Blueprint
 

First off we definitely will need to see a heavy dose of the Manzella confidence . . . Not just self-confidence but BELIEF in the student's ability to get'r done assuming the person is not a total dorked out goofball physically.

Need to know what YOU have done to help your students that have gone from golf's out-house to the G.O.L.F. Penthouse. AND what THE STUDENT did. Is there a MANZELLA PROCESS? Or is there some common theme in those you have TRANSFORMED?

And we will need to know what to EXPECT as students . . .

1. Minimum Time Commitment
2. Critical Mechanics/Aligments and drills
3. Assuming an HOURS worth of practice . . . how should the PRACTICE HOUR be organized to be most effective.
4. Are we talking overnight (probably not) or x number of years max.

Basically a HERE'S WHAT I'VE DONE WITH THESE PEOPLE AND IF YOU WANT THESE TYPE OF RESULTS HERE'S MINIMUM COMITMENT OF TIME AND EFFORT IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO GET THERE.

Now off to the phone booth B . . . THIS IS A JOB FOR . . .

THE ITALIAN STALLION

Extreme Makeover
 

I am 51, and really started playing golf at 46. I had the good fortune to run into an older gentleman who once upon a time was a Hogan Staff member and a local PGA pro. At 76, he took this struggling to make solid contact beginner under his wing. He taught me the value of a solid impact position, flat left wrist and bent right srist without so much as mentioning 12-1 or 12-2. Little did I know the journey he started me on. Within 3 months I was a 12 HC and found the yellow book courtesy of a friend. Lots of work later, periodic nurturing by the old guy, a discovery of the LBG site and the Yoda archives led to fairly rapid inprovement. Fast forward to now, +2 HC and a reasonable swing and a reasonable understanding of my swing. Certainly I still have issues (Yoda has a disk to review as we speak), but the TGM fundamentals were the way. I am forever grateful to Chuck Rey(the old guy) this site and the valuable archived posts.
G2M

Good Story
 

Thanks for this story...gives all us mid-50 guys hope for improvement with good practice and TGM principles.

YOu have to remember that you have to be in the right frame of mind (that is, you don't choke and your trust your swing) in order to get the best out of your swing. I think thats why peoples scores can be so high.

Swing v.s. Hack
 

As long as they hack (hit the ball by thinking of hitting the ball), the average handicap will remain to be stagnant, regardless of LBG/TGM.

As soon as he/she swings (hit the ball without thinking of hitting the ball), the "average" golfer should be a 70's shooter in no time, regardless of LBG/TGM.

I'd like to hear you expand on this if possible . . . how do you do the above.

Good post . . . I think your're on to something.

bts,

Like Bucket, I am interested.

I have many students who before coming to me "swing" through the ball to a Tigeresque finish, but do not shoot in the 70's as you have described.

The problem really is not so much not "swinging" through.
The problem is that golfers swing through and Steer per 3-F-7-A.

An oversimplification perhaps bts? :)

Intention(s) involved?
 

Average Joe: "hacking the ball (conciously or subconciously)"-the intentions of moving the ball (high, far and straight) to the target through the club with the hands, wrists, arms, shoulders, hips, knees, legs or........

Top 0.1% of Joe: "swing the club"-the intentions of moving the club with the hands or other body parts, regardless of impact, ball flight, target, ......

Top 0.0001% of Joe, including Iron Byron: "sustain the lag"-the intention of sustaining through shoulder rotation only, regardless of the hands, wrists, arms, hips, knees, legs, club, impact, ball flight, target, ......

With Iron Byron, the game is boring!!!
With swinging, the game is less boring!!!
With hacking, the game is interesting!!!

Who wants to be bored?

Ah... maybe we are in my territory....but I'm not sure. Is it possible to 'swing through' AND steer? If so, I'd think there might be more hope for me, because if I'm swinging through I ought to be able to overcome the mental issue of steering... but if steering is a physical swing issue it is more of a problem. I hope I'm making sense to you??? I can play pretty well occasionally ... sub par on rare occasions but I'm not consistent enough nor really as good as my best scores might indicate, my ballstriking is never that crisp (btw..my short game isn't too hot either..lol).

Poor Misguided Homer
 

Are you saying that shoulder rotation is the end-all?
I guess poor Homer wrote too much about the Imperatives, Hand Monitoring etc then? :happy3:

Steering and Swinging Through
 

psheehan

The swing that bts is referring to here is not the swinger's swing referenced in TGM.

He was referencing a 'swing through' rather than Quitting per 3-F-7-B.

The issue at hand here is the 3rd Imperative - A Straight Plane Line.

If you have a bent plane line which is caused by steering then you have an off line swing. The imperatives will not be maintained, but the golf club will still be 'swung' through - which is the point of my earlier post - 'swinging through' is an oversimplification to lower scores.

Steering is a mental problem for most because of the concept "hit the ball with a square face". That no doubt is a very sexy concept and will work IF and only IF the ball separates from the clubface INSTANTLY.

What we believe shows up in what we do...:)

It's actually "Sustain the resistance ("lag") encountered during shoulder rotation".

That's pretty much right!! Imperatives and essentials are the "effect" "caused" by "sustain the lag through shoulder rotation".

One last shot: you do the "cause" and the "effect" shows.