Lazy Man's Guide: Swinging vs Hitting
 

Most of these do not define Swinging and Hitting.

Please feel free to add more! :D And don't take it too seriously!

Swinger vs Hitter
Pull vs Push
Longitudinal Acceleration vs Radial Acceleration
Rope Handle vs Axe Handle
Centrifugal Force vs Muscular Thrust
Whirl back vs Muscular Carry back
Quick vs Strong
Stretched Muscles vs Contracted Muscles
Loose vs Stiff
Pitch Basic Stroke vs Punch Basic Stroke
Spin vs Drive
Right Shoulder Flywheel vs Right Shoulder Backstop (Launching Pad)
Pivot Thrust (Momentum transfer) vs Power Package Thrust
End vs Top
Top Arc vs Straight Line
Quick Start Down vs Slow Start Down
PP#3 Top Side vs PP#3 Aft Side
Standard Wrist Action vs Single Wrist Action
Sequenced Release vs Simultaneous Release
Right palm 'on plane' vs plane 'through' right palm
Wrist Action vs Hand Motion
Drag Loading vs Drive Loading
Throw Out vs Drive Out
Start up and release Swivel vs No Swivel (except after Follow Through)
Wrist Throw vs Right Arm Throw
Arc of Approach vs Angle of Approach
Wheel Rim vs Wheel Track
Horizontal Hinging vs Angled Hinging
Full Roll Feel vs No Roll Feel
Draw vs Fade
On-Line vs Cross Line
Plane Line Rotation vs Grip Rotation
Soft hands vs (Relatively) Firmer hands
Standard Address vs Fix Address
Accumulator #4 vs Accumulator #1
Physics vs Geometry
Let it happen vs Make it happen
Mike Finney (Mikestloc) vs Ted Fort (YodasLuke)
Elegant vs Not so elegant (oh no, I'm gonna get hammered saying this!)

Great list...I saw the adjustment...keep up the good work!!!

Yes, I was out of breath and got them the wrong way round! Error has been corrected.

Tongzilla,
Need oxygen mask?...Wrist throw vs. Right arm throw....Top Arc vs. Straightline ... Arc of Approach vs. Angle of Approach...Wrist Action vs. Hand Motion...Pitch vs. Punch

Arc of Approach vs. Angle of Approach was already on there! :D Your new contributions has been added.

I never understood Wrist Action vs Hand Motion for Swingers and Hitters. Could you explain?

Tongzilla,

Don't know for sure...check 4-0...4-B,4-C...could be wrong though!!! Hitter has to make sure ther is no turn and roll which would invlve the backswing swivel and release swivel...Like I said ...could be wrong!!!

Let it happen vs Make it happen.

charlie

(Left Hand) Karate Chop vs (Right Hand) Jab
Inactive Right Elbow/Active Left Wrist vs Active Right Elbow/Inactive Left Wrist


Great List!

PChandler

I always thought the list in 6-H-0-E/F were a great list to follow.

Of course if you take 12-1-0/12-2-0 I think you will only find 9 components that differ whereas in 6-H-0 I think the number comes out to 10.

Of course there are only a few components that are incompatible between hitting and swinging whereas many are, maybe not optimal or without requiring compensation, but many.

Nice List
 

I'd pull two off: Spin Vs Drive (although I am not sure exactly what this references-I'm assuming it relates to ball flight characteristics) and Draw vs Fade (sure you could say that hitting and angled hinging has a fade producing component that needs to be compensated for but swinging certainly has no draw component)- the draw/fade requirements are really completely separate issues from the hitting and swinging methods.

Yoda vs Yoda :D

Drill #1 vs Drill #2

Right palm 'on plane' vs plane 'through' right palm

Physics vs Geometry

Rotation point vs Mirror Point

Re: Nice List
 

Spin (the body like a fly-wheel) vs. Drive (the right arm-elbow)

Please explain the above, especially the last one. :roll:

Me too.

Re: Nice List
 

Thanks Drewitgolf- I'm for keeping it on the list now that I understand the basic concept.

maybe I should start a thread asking for a hands up from anyone who uses 12-1-0. Seems like nobody does :?

Nevermind,

Everyone of my students in PGM(160) will have a Chapter 12 checklist completed by December...So far 54 checklists completed...aprrox.65% hitting components...35% swinging components...Chapter 12 is invaluable especially the Basic Motion Cirricullum in 12-5...I ALWAYS run a mental checklist of Chapter 12 in my mind for every lesson...That is what determines what suggestions I make to the student!

I'm using the component checklists to see how frequently each component is used...it is a project that is being done by my students in Instructor Development PGM270 at the University.


Data ....Collecting Data...Not Opinions!!!
Skywalker

I just don't know DG...

I'm not authorized...

My guess is that 10-24 -B...Non-Auto Random Sweep...Means that it is triggered manually...at the Side instead of during release usually with a Right Arm Throw which is 10-20-B -...

The right arm simply "pushes" the Lever Assemblies(6-A) toward impact with either "early OR late" release. Usually restricted to Hitting(10-19-A)...

When I swing I use extenser action as passive right arm participation..so sharper focus can be placed on the Active Left Wrist aka. "Standard Wrist Action" and Sequenced Release which is best triggered by a wrist throw...10-20-E Especially, compatible with swinging....So any right arm participation is passive ...but present!!!

I am NOT a golfing machine expert...And I make plenty of mistakes... So if you disagree with my post ..then you diagree with the book...the only person I can recommend you ask is Yoda...He knows the book better than anyone I know...and I've learned from some of the best....

Skywalker

PS I DO NOT disagree with you on right arm Swinging..it's in the Book...But it is ALWAYS associated with it's dear friend 10-3-K ...it always tends toward a Simultaneous release sequence.... which is usually not compatible with swinging....

In my own checklist I listed several throws as combinations....the correction should have been Hand Throw with right arm throw(Hitting) and wrist throw with shoulder throw(Swininging)... I'm not afraid to admit to making a mistake....So I'm sorry ...please forgive my ignorance!!!

If my post is wrong then I Simply DO NOT KNOW....

How about you DG..

Good Luck!!!

DG,

I apologize for my mistake...you did say 12-2 which IS drag loading(swinging)...I overlooked that fact ...My mistake...not paying close attention.

10-24-B with Swinging is exactly what Chuck Evans and Lynn Blake suggested I switch too from Automatic Snap Release at the workshop at Pine Needles...

Chuck and Lynn felt it was more compatible....why ? ..I do not know

They had me trigger "Manually"with a wrist throw shortly after start down... Perhaps it was a Hand Throw...But I don't think so because they said nothing about the #3 Pressure Piont releasing ALL the Accumulators slowly and evenly.

They just talked about releasing #2 with A Left Hand Karate Chop keeping the right hand palm up to the plane...

BTW
I never said that or implied that ...about AI'sand Chapter 12..

Lynn demonstrates those checklists to a "T"...Saw it live for myself..

Let's just face it...we're never gonna see eye to eye on anything...

You're right ...I am wrong ...let's not make this personal...

There are far more important things in life than trying to prove someone wrong!!!!

And I more than anyone else, NEED to follow this advice!!!

Please... let us " Leave it at that!!!"

Good Luck to you and your game!!!

Skywalker,

When executing the Karate chop type motion. Would the Left Wrist be Uncocked while the left plam is against or facing the plane? Or is it Impact Swivel then Uncock? Or may be it depends on grip type? Or may be I'm a psycho?

Still incubating the Karate chop. But I can demonstrate precision execution on a fried pork chop sandwich (mustard and white slaw).

Thanks!

B

12 Piece check out Lynn hitting a 6 iron video in the Gallery.
If you play it frame by frame.
Personally I feel the Karate chop stays against the plane then swivels
after contact. The swivel is not forced just happens by itself.

Yes, this is something I want to ask Yoda himself.

I thought the Karate Chop is suppose to teach the Sequenced Release used by Swingers. Hitters use a Simultaneous Release, which basically feels like one big Angled Hinge Action on the downswing (a result of the turning of the body and the orbiting left arm), or a Paddlewheel Motion (if they have Turned their Left Hand on the face of the Inclined Plane at the Top). Sequenced Release is more compatible with the Throw Out action of Centrifugal Force. Simultaneous Release is more compatible with the Drive Out action of Right Tricep Muscle Power.

Any comments? Should Hitters use a Release Swivel (Uncock then Roll) into Impact? I thought Hitters should only use a Finish Swivel. What was Yoda actually doing in the aforementioned video?

Swingers do the Uncock and swivel back to impact. For a swing on the back stroke, the swivel should be completed by hip height or sooner and on the down stroke it doesn't start until reaching hip height (aprox positions)

Hitters motion is such that the swivel isn't completed until the top and on down stroke it is just a continuation of movement to impact

At least that is the way I understand the action

Not Mr. Skywalker, sorry. :wink:

The left wrist uncocking motion is done while the left hand is "palm-down" to the face of the plane. Uncock on-plane then roll. Sequenced release.

I don't believe grip types don't change that, but 10-2-D does mean the clubface is being thrown along with the clubhead in one motion. With 10-2-B it isn't.

Thanks man! What exactly is "throwing the clubface at the ball?" I noticed in another section in the book, Mr. K states that "throwing the clubface at the ball" is a no no. But then later he says it is compatible with 10-2-D and swinging.

Fog rolling in . . .

Regards,

Bucket

More Digging into the Archives
 

Left Wrist Cock and Uncock (Vertical Motion) -- Clubhead Motion

Left Hand Turn and Roll (Rotational Motion) -- Clubface Alignment

Regarding the last sentence of the first paragraph of 2-P:

• "Only with a Turned Left Wrist, such as 10-2-D, can Uncocking be both motions, that is, actually Throwing the Clubface at the Ball."

With the recommended Strong Single Action Grip (10-2-B), the Clubface Impact alignment is established in Fix with the Left Hand Vertical. During Release, the Clubhead is thrown by the Uncocking of the Turned Left Wrist. The Clubface is aligned by a separate Roll of the Left Hand into its Vertical Alignment for Impact. These actions are Sequenced for Swingers and Simultaneous for Hitters (4-D-0).

With a Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D), the Clubface Impact Alignment is likewise established in Fix. However, with this Grip Variation, the Left Hand is Turned On Plane. During Release, just as in the Strong Single Action Grip, the Clubhead is thrown by the Uncocking of the Turned Left Wrist. But, because the Turned Left Wrist is also the Impact Alignment, no separate Left Hand Roll is required to Square the Clubface. Hence, Uncocking the Turned Left Wrist throws both Clubhead and Clubface at the Ball.

Pull w/ passive wrists v.s. push w/ active wrists. That's pretty much it.

Re: More Digging into the Archives
 

Thanks man! Crystal Clear! Much appreciated! Follow up question.

This came from the Archives. This makes a lot of since but would this also work for 10-2-D?

Regarding the Open Clubface alignment at Fix, try this experimhelp you understand why Horizontal Hina Grip the Club with your Left Wrist Flat and Vertical. Then raise your arm directly in front of your Left Shoulder and parallel to the groundVerify that the toe of the Club is pointing directly at the sky. If it is not, adjust it until it does. Now swing your arm in front of you (like a hinged gate) until it is directly over the back of the Ball (positioned forStraightaway Flight). Finally, without changing your Flat and Vertical Left Wrist in the slightest, lower your arm until the Clb The idea is that with Horizontal Hinging, the Clubface is always our on the right track, rchang72. You're learning your lessons well!
arget is North, the Insideft
Quadrant is the Southwest Quadrant.
ent to
ging demands it and
pproximately how much is required:
.
ubface is soled
ehind the Ball. You will find that it is slightly open.
Closing through Impact, and that Motion must be accomodated in theImpact Fix Alignment. For the 'light' Shots -- Putts and short Chips -- the Impact Interval is so short that very little Clubface adjustment is required. In other words, the Ball does not stay on the Clubface long enough for the Closing Motion to affect it. So, on Short Shots -- for allHinge Actions -- a Square Clubface at Fix is all that is required. [Thisinformation is not 'in the book' but wre However, the opposite is true for the extended Impact Interval of longer shots. For Horizontal Hinging, the Clubface has longer to Closand it must therefore be aligned more and more Open as the shots get longer. For Angled Hinging, the Clubface should be aligned mora The degree of Clubface 'Open' or 'Close' will vary for eachlength of Shot. And this can only be determined through experimentation. Ao 1 2 3. Vertical Hinging -- "_____
as taken directly from Homer's
corded discussion of this point.]
e,
e
nd more Closed to compensate for the inherent Slice tendency.
Club and
s a guide to this trial and error process, Homer
ffered this advice:
. Horizontal Hinging -- "Toward the Open side;"
. Angled Hinging -- "Toward the Closed side;"
Always Square."

This may have not been necessary to think about but for me in learning the final move I needed to make was the swivel after the uncock. This is the way you return the clubshaft back on plane. Without it some great pushes. With it dead straight shots. For me it was not automatic at the time since my total thought was on my right side arm motion and the swivel is a left side function. Thanks to Yoda my penalty was 100 left arm only dowel swivel finishes for the rest of my life.
Dave


Dave

I don't think I have repeated this on this board as many times as I have on others....

Go to the Gallery and find 6bMike's video titled "Hitter's Row". It's a bit of a misnomer because 6bMike meant it more like the novel title "Murderer's Row" (of the golf ball). It is actually a face-on of Lynn Swinging and Ted Hitting. The compelling value of the vid is that they are doing their Total Motions almost in synchronization. But that is for another day. there is just so much in that video.

For today, just consider it an invaluable look at Ted's swing, face on. You don't have to have an eye forged on Homer Kelley's teachings to see general things which can be spoken of in the generic.

Just notice that when Ted is at Top and locked and loaded, everything about him is ready to drive "straight down". You can see it. And that's a driver in his hand, not an iron. Contrast that with Lynn's Swing that has to milk every inch out of the radius (and centrifugal force). So the down Action is more difficult to see.

I am just beyond novice and it was difficult to get the cognition of "Down" with the driver. Just couldn't get it until I saw Ted do it and that ball that just refused to fall from the sky.

That video is pure gold. Just run it in slo-mo over and over like Sybervision. Then let the questions flow.

Charlie

Viva La Difference!
 

You're right, Charlie. Clearly, Ted is Hitting and I am Swinging http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...loadfile&i=122. In fact, the respective Strokes could be used as models for both Patterns. For comparative purposes, note the following 'Hitting versus Swinging' Component Variations:

-- Impact Address (10-9-B) vs. Classic Address (10-9-A)

-- Top Assembly Point (10-21-A) vs. End Assembly Point (10-21-C)

-- Fixed Lag Pressure Point vs. Rotated Lag Pressure Point (both explained in 10-11-0-3)

-- Drive Loading (of the Right Triceps / 10-19-A) vs. Drag Loading (of the Left Wrist / 10-19-C)

-- Power Accumulator #1 (Right Arm Drive-Out off backstop Right Shoulder / 6-B-1-A) vs. Power Accumulator #4 (Left Arm Throwout by driving Right Shoulder Turn Thrust / 6-B-4-A)

-- Right Arm Throw (10-19-B) vs. Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E)

-- Simultaneous Release vs. Sequenced Release (both explained in 4-D-0)

-- Angled Hinging (10-10-C) vs. Horizontal Hinging (10-10-D)

Especially telling is the differentiating use of the #1 versus the #4 Power Accumulators. We were both 'maxing out' in Release -- he of his Right Triceps Thrust and me of my Right Shoulder Turn Thrust (Body Momentum Transfer).

Students who use this video as a case study will go a long way toward advancing their understanding of Hitting and Swinging.