Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 86248)

Short answer: Yes, but you can intentionally Roll too.

You can swing and manipulate Release, Uncock and/or Roll as hard as you want. Stick the thing right in the ground and hard.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 86250)

Is this the pattern Tomasello taught to a guy who calls himself Coophitter on forums? He said TT told him to drive the hosel into the ground about 6" to the right of his right heel using his arms/wrists/hands only and no pivot.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 86099)

I know I suffer from lag envy.



Re Mr Batspeed. I agree with everything he is saying and believe Homer would too. Given a true straight line hand path there is no CF (the force not the release type some guys talk about) Throwout. Law of the flail, the swingle releases and accelerates ahead of the handle without any force being applied from the hands or arms directly to it ......you cant if its a string or leather strap that connects the two pieces. Pure CF throwout. In other words no curved path, no circular motion, no CF or its throwout. And I believe Mr Batspeed's straight line then right arm participation release type is akin to Drag Loading then Drive in Homer speak.

I see him as describing a problem for batters where they go straight line too long..........something you dont see in golf where people tend to not have enough Longitudinal , Straight Line and throw it from the Top early.

I wouldnt change Stricker or Watson's Release personally. But they do Delay their Release Point for a mechanical advantage to my mind.

So Id say:

1. Given the same hand speed , lever length and assuming no slowing effect associated with lever extension: The later the Release the faster the Clubhead Speed given the Overtaking Rate discussion of 2-P and the Endless Belt pulley wheel analogy.

2. Throw in the slowing effect and the difference is bigger.

3. The same clubhead speed could be achieved by increasing the Hand Speed for the earlier Release Type.

4. Earlier Release's have a shallower Angle of Attack effecting the geometry of Impact (positively for some shots, negatively for others).

Here's where Ive been dying to go with this discussion

5. Confining ourselves to Swinging , Sequenced Release here. Can some Non Auto Release Triggers actually do more than merely Trigger Release? Can they Power the Release of #2 angle to a speed higher than CF would induce? In other words could an active , Non Auto Left Wrist Throw , vertical hammering like motion add more final clubhead speed?

If so you have a method of powering the swingle. (Some Non Auto Releases for sure just Trigger Release)

Bucket have you ever seen these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqKdoBVYQ9E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGz52...eature=related

Sounds like a Release Throw to me , not sure if its Left WRist or Right Arm but to guess Id say Left Wrist as he gets really close to demonstrating Sequenced Release , 2 then 3 at the bottom. A Non Auto Release Trigger he seems to ascribe it to the right elbow unfolding, interestingly.

You can if you freeze frame notice a Delayed Release again ......... mechanical advantage in evidence to my mind but not crazy late.


Speaking of Right Elbow Magic and where the Throw is take a look at this Yoda movie. In application the Release Point , Throw can be Delayed to a point later than illustrated , or it perhaps another stimulus/response thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfdsXK06EGA


Im trying to find that video of Yoda with his wooden flail from ITC's visit to Cuscowilla. In it Yoda notes when and how early the swingle releases. Its gravity powered in the demonstration and flips over when the handle is sorta kinda opposite his side as I recall. Earlier than you would tend to think.

At the risk of stating the obvious, Homer was not all about max delay! Its an option and like all options with its own implications. But that said , Id like a little more Longitudinal . Just not sure how to get it.

Could you create more lag at #2 by creating more lag at components further up stream? Using the whip analogy. I shot a little two under par at Wailea Gold (6,650 yards) today with my Arms heavy and lagging my Shoulders. Had to get the Pivot going to do that. Probably still looked like Stricker though. Man, just a tad more Longitudinal would be nice..... please.

Damn , I also want moves like Jagger.

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86255)

A face on video of me trying to rev up the hip motion - trying to get the hips to open up while keeping shoulders closed.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz4uqplBeFE

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 86257)

Much more dynamic hip action than previously and at least as much snap as before. I really like the slant of your right leg and how you preserve it as you turn into the right heel. By keeping the right shoulder back on the DS, the hip action forces it to go down plane - nowhere else it can go!:)

Very nice swing, good work. Where to now, even more open hips at impact? Still swinging the arms more outward?

Originally Posted by BerntR (Post 86265)

That was quite impressive, Justin. It looks so much more solid and connected with the new hip turn. How are you hitting them?

If you want to refine it further you could try to eliminate the small hip slide you have in your takeaway.

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86255)

A face on video of me trying to rev up the hip motion - trying to get the hips to open up while keeping shoulders closed.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz4uqplBeFE

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86277)

Justin,

Lots of good things. You don't need me for those.

Aberrations that jump out:

1. Underplane Start Up and Backstroke.

2. Rubber-Wristed Top.

3. Exaggerated Finish.

Work to do.

As have we all.

:salut:

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86279)

The oracle has finally spoken...!

Could you please clarify on point 1?

Which plane should I start on - elbow or turned shoulder?

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86280)

Pick one.

You are under both.

:salut:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 86290)

Hey Yoda,

How can you see this underplane condition from the face-on view? Or are you just assuming this because Justin uses the shoulder turn takeaway rather than the RFT? And are you implying that he is in an incorrect position at the Top?

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86299)

How can you see this underplane condition from the face-on view?

It's what I do.

Or are you just assuming this because Justin uses the shoulder turn takeaway rather than the RFT?

Whatever, the Hands have allowed the emphasized Body Turn to rip themselves and the Club way too inside and under plane. Nothing that can't be corrected, of course, which Justin does. As did Ray Floyd. Not ideal, but not fatal.

And are you implying that he is in an incorrect position at the Top?

It could be better. The fact that you refer to a gross "position" -- as opposed to specific "alignments" -- defines our gulf.

:salut:

Originally Posted by Etzwane (Post 86301)

Did you mean this one ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNh0dRcHGBw

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86300)

Yoda,


Thank you for taking the time to look at this, I appreciate your feedback.

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86299)

How can you see this underplane condition from the face-on view?

It's what I do.

Or are you just assuming this because Justin uses the shoulder turn takeaway rather than the RFT?

Whatever, the Hands have allowed the emphasized Body Turn to rip themselves and the Club way too inside and under plane. Nothing that can't be corrected, of course, which Justin does. As did Ray Floyd. Not ideal, but not fatal.

And are you implying that he is in an incorrect position at the Top?

It could be better. The fact that you refer to a gross "position" -- as opposed to specific "alignments" -- defines our gulf.

:salut:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86303)

Justin,

I've taken a look at some of your other YouTube postings (and now have an idea, too, of where you're "coming from"). Fundamentally, we just have very different views of the correct hand and arm alignments and how to swing a golf club, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNQPX2fRdRM&NR=1.

Your swing evidences what I consider to be several serious exaggerations. No doubt others see it differently ("Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."). Good luck.

:salut:

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86304)

Yoda,

You are mistaken. Those videos were taken way back in 2009. I am now "back", because I fell off the way path as I have outlined somewhere in this thread. The only videos that are representative of what my view is is from 2011.

Originally Posted by KevCarter (Post 86305)

Holy smokes. What was that video all about? I don't think I've seen a drill quite like that before...

Kevin

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 86306)

John Erickson's training method . . .

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86304)

Yoda,

You are mistaken. Those videos were taken way back in 2009. I am now "back", because I fell off the way path as I have outlined somewhere in this thread. The only videos that are representative of what my view is is from 2011.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 86306)

John Erickson's training method . . .

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86318)

Obviously, this video is all about the Release Interval (accumulating, then releasing power in an abbreviated stroke). The Clubhead Power (Left Wrist Uncock and Roll) and Clubface Alignment (impact bag arresting left and right wrist collision conditions) are admirable. However, the geometric alignments of Zone 1 (Pivot Control) and Zone 3 (Plane Control) are simply awful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9epK...eature=related

Sorry.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 86319)

No disagreement here . . . I stuck my toe in the water to see what all the hub-bub was about . . . Canadians swim in the ocean at Myrtle Beach in FEBRUARY. . . not this redneck . . . water too COLD . . . I swim in warm Yellow water :happy3:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 86317)

Justin,

Please, take a deep breath, and listen.

I remember your videos from your earliest postings on my site. The promise was so strong. Frankly, I was shocked at what I saw two nights ago in your posted swing.

I know you are "back" from your 2009 YouTube videos. Your recent work is evident. Unfortunately, certain exaggerations remain, and that is why I chose to post the one I did.

The good news is that the exaggerations can be gone almost overnight. Even better, they can be replaced by alignments far more in keeping with the nature of the Golf Stroke, not to mention your own humanity.

Call me.

:salut:

P.S. I know this is a serious conversation for you. Know that it is for me, too, even if we can't get it done here. You can lead a new generation in a new world. Let's get it right.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 86332)

OK now I see the sub text and the reason for the title of this thread...."return to snap release". Sorry I've been very busy shopping for bathing suits for my trip to Myrtle Beach next January.

Comdpa could you describe you're former Release Trigger or Throw in TGM terms or otherwise? Non Auto , sequenced, two handed ? Does the Right Hand cock and uncock, or bend and un bend actively? Homer wouldnt like either of those too much, but they do exist in the wild. Or maybe the left wrist throws out the #2 angle prior to the right arm rolling #3 ?

Could you get it working? Did it add anything interesting to your Auto Snap?

Man thats a serious departure from Auto Snap.

Originally Posted by comdpa (Post 86341)

Well in so many words as Yoda has put it, I developed a very vicious underplane backswing under the guise of "you dont hit the ball on your backswing".

Well, you also don't hit the ball on your follow through, so does that mean you do it any which way you want?

No.

And so it is with the backswing...it is a portent of things to come.

Watch this space for more.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 86355)

Homer Kelley disagreed, in fact Yoda said in 2006,

Homer Kelley told me:

"You can 'clown' the Backstroke," i.e., take it back however you want (and from whatever position you want), but at the end of the day, per 1-L #20:

"For any given Line of Compression, every Machine must produce identical Impact Alignments."

I think Homer was much less concerned with the backswing than people here today, and much more concerned with getting to the Top/End with enough physics potential to deliver those Impact Alignments with as much clubhead speed as possible.

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 86355)

Homer Kelley disagreed, in fact Yoda said in 2006,

Homer Kelley told me:

"You can 'clown' the Backstroke," i.e., take it back however you want (and from whatever position you want), but at the end of the day, per 1-L #20:

"For any given Line of Compression, every Machine must produce identical Impact Alignments."

I think Homer was much less concerned with the backswing than people here today, and much more concerned with getting to the Top/End with enough physics potential to deliver those Impact Alignments with as much clubhead speed as possible.

Originally Posted by drewitgolf (Post 86357)

You can indeed "clown the backswing" if you can re-Align yourself at Station 2, the Top (12-3-0), but why make it more difficult than it needs to be. The problem is that a poorly executed Backstroke can indeed affect the Top and Start Down Alignments. Clowning around is only for the golfers that understand how to rediscover their Hands at the Top. Hogan knew how to do it. He started with a shoulder turn takeaway, but re-aligned himself. For us mere mortal, the longer we can keep the club on Plane the better.

Originally Posted by drewitgolf (Post 86357)

You can indeed "clown the backswing" if you can re-Align yourself at Station 2, the Top (12-3-0), but why make it more difficult than it needs to be. The problem is that a poorly executed Backstroke can indeed affect the Top and Start Down Alignments. Clowning around is only for the golfers that understand how to rediscover their Hands at the Top. Hogan knew how to do it. He started with a shoulder turn takeaway, but re-aligned himself. For us mere mortal, the longer we can keep the club on Plane the better.

Originally Posted by golfguru (Post 86365)

Lost me there MJ. How does a left shoulder swing the FWedge up with a Flat Shoulder turn? Image does not compute into a visual. I'm sure you have this down pat but my brain is trying to work out the hands/arms lifting role connected to the left shoulder swinging up/around. Any chance of posting a quick vid?

Originally Posted by BerntR (Post 86376)

I like that image, MJ