I use 29s myself and have 4 sets, so will never use anything else and don't pay any attention to the new stuff.

Whether impact location or aiming point, put your mind in the right elbow instead.

By pitch the right elbow, I meant move your elbow to the release location in a pitch attitude, leading the hands. Of course, where it is at the top of your backswing will determine how you move it. For example if you push your hands back away from you as you turn back(width swing), it will be much harder to get it in front of the right hip without some "pitching" motion of the elbow in addition to the slide/tilt. It's much easier if it's hanging down and close to the body at the top.

Your statement above - "hip slide with a delayed turn to clear a big hole for the bent right elbow" is a perfect description of the DS sequence!

My mistake - right elbow passing RIGHT hip. Ouch, trying to pass the left hip with the right elbow before release with a delayed hip turn would probably destroy your right rotator cuff. In fact your arm might fly off.

Just sold some tn 87's on eBay but will never part with my old Wilson staffs. Not that I'd ever take em out on the course again.

Do you mEan mind in elbow for training purposes and then reverting to hands? When in Crash using Homer speak.

Hip Slde and Delayed Hip Turn were changes in the 7 th I believe. Somebody crossed out the delayed hip turn photo in my 6 th and changed 12-1 and 12-2 to show slide with delayed turn..... Sorta like hogans move. Or the missing piece of vj maybe.

TN87s(Tommy Nakajima - 1987)I saw him tie for 3rd at the 88 PGA at Oak Tree in Edmond OK. Those are serious collector clubs.

Well the elbow is awfully close to the hands. I don't know if it would ever become permanently ingrained enough to shift back to the hands(speaking for myself only).

I still only have the 6th edition which I bought in 1983, and haven't even seen the 7th. I think the previous owner of your 6th ed got it right. Some guys on the WRX Hogan forum are trying to say he did something on the BS to make the pitch elbow automatic on the DS - I don't think so!

The 87's copper underlay thing was over sold I think by later day proponents. I think all the old blades from back in day had a copper underlay, or so I hear. Your 29's are just as good Id bet. Modern lofts too. Why change if you like em.

The notes in my 6th were either done by me or Lynn or me under Lynn's direction.... I honestly cant remember which are which in some instances and so I hesitated to attribute that business to the green one. Thankfully most of my notes are in pencil and can get erased , modified as more eggs hatch in the hatchery. Its a process. Most often a blind one but sometimes guided.

I have the 7th edition notes if any interest.

Thanks for the offer - I'm afraid we've hijacked your thread.

Back on topic - check this video out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eggigbvf654&NR=1

I never would have guessed he was a deep pitch snap releaser. Just look at those positions starting at :35 with his elbow past the right hip and leading the hands with the shaft well above horizontal, at :37 with his hands ahead of the ball(line of sight) and the shaft just a little below horizontal, and then impact at :39 with perfect alignments. What great camera work catching those 3 critical positions. This is about as good as it gets!

He is 12 yards behind the PGA Tour Average in driving distance 277 vs. 289 T12 in % of drives that go 240 to 260 but to his credit t15 in ak-er-it . . . 5 from the bottom in ball speed 4 from the bottom in carry distance 106 clubhead speed . . . I know that he would stomp a mudhole in me as far as ball striking goes . . . BUT . . . I'm not convinced that this is the most "efficient" "powerful" swing model. Looks like he is moving back and hanging back to me . . . great player . . . but just sayin' . . .

Way more dynamic ways to move the club . . . Verplank's club never encounters the pulley wheel . . . One club is getting drug and one club is getting THROWN . . . One pivot is live . . . one pivot is hanging back . . . One has hips going forward one had head tilting backward . . . Not saying that Verplank ain't an awesome player . . . just not sure his swing is the model . . Pictures tell a story here . . . can see why Doyle would like it though.

Scott is a lifelong diabetic and can't generate a lot of horsepower. He's not a healthy man and tires easily. Maybe the snap release pattern is the most efficient and is why he could earn over $1.75 million last yr and over $800K so far this yr? Maybe that's why Ben teaches it?

That is a very good observation.
Having a snap release does not guarantee that one will become a big hitter - it just maximizes mechanical advantage. There are other factors in play like hand speed and pivot speed - contrast Scott Verplank's swing to say Sergio Garcia's and Bobby Schaeffer's which have a more "whiplash" effect.

But weren't y'all the cats that said that the snap release equated to distance? My contention that what Ben and Verplank are doing is NOT SNAP . . . as far as the diabetic deal . . . I know about that . . . but my counter point would be Hogan basically couldn't walk and his swing looks way more dynamic than Ben and Verplank rolled up together . . . They are not releasing the club at least that would be my observation of the pictures . . . both of them get really pitchy and tilt back behind it and their pivots stall? That's what I see . . . but I don't have $1.75 million. I'm not saying that you'd teach Verplank out of it . . . that'd be kinda like teaching Jamaal Wilks not to do that whacky thing with his jump shot. But by tour standards Verplank is a tapper. But of course he is rich. So if you wanna say this Doyle version of the "snap" release is a get rich swing fine . . . but I don't think it's the model for hittin' the long ball. Don't look like Verplank or Ben are bringing the full radius to bear on the ball to me.

In my dookey ball rat poisoned mind the full radius is brought to bear by fully extending the primary lever and extending all the pivot components from the ground up FORWARD not backwards . . . knees, hips, spine, chest accumulators . . .

I can agree with this . . . Garcia and from what I know of that Schaeffer dude's swing are certainly SLINGING the golf club . . . I contend that Ben and Verplank are not.

Was it mentioned on the link that the snap was the route to distance? A better statement would be a high percentage of snappers are long hitters. Also, is Ben's swing really a get rich swing? :)

It looks like Verplank has some unused horsepower below his belly button. I still like his hinge action through the ball though.

Interesting you mention this...go to http://www.smh.com.au/executive-styl...803-1iai6.html

A study published by the Journal of Applied Biomechanics on the hips in generating power.

WOW MizunoJoe!

One of my favorite players, I had no idea how much he moved back, but as you mentioned, beautiful alignments at impact. Just goes to show there are many ways to effectively swing the club...

I wonder why some great teachers of TGM include the Essentials as part of their teaching bible, while others treat them much like the optional components??? We all seem to agree on the Imperatives.

On a side note, I was fortunate to attend a little clinic with Bobby Clampett the other night. I was very impressed with both he and his ball striking. I would say his move is somewhere between stationary head and Mr, Verplank. He talked quite a bit about Mr. Doyle and his influence. Great stuff!

It really does come down to impact alignments...

:salut: :salut: :salut:

Kevin

Kev . . . if you was gonna push a refrigerator . . . would you move your head back away from it while you were pushing it?

LOL. I teach and use LBG exclusively. Stationary Pivot, MacDonald Exercises, RFT, Aiming Point, Imperatives and Essentials. YODA's swing is my model. Preaching to the choir. :salut:

However, I'm smart enough to know Mr. Doyle can teach circles around me, and Verplank could give me 4 a side and throttle me. :) Lot's of ways to play if you believe in it.

I believe in the stationary pivot. I have proven it to be the most effective for my swing, and it is how I help my students improve the fastest. I'm comfortable enough in my techniques, all learned here, that I can focus on the positives without having to dismiss what others do. Live and let live!

Kevin

I'm with you HOWEVER . . . I'll say this . . . people have assumed that the snap release is somehow "superior" . . . and that it goes farther . . . I ain't buying it. At least not this version of it . . . Plus lots of people equate everything that Doyle teaches as THE representation of the Machine. We all know that just ain't so . . . We got Chapter 10 . . . components gotta fit together.

Then Verplank's stroke gets trotted out as a model for the Snap after all this discussion of a smaller wheel is gonna "out-drive all your playing partners" post 37 . . . Verplank don't seem to be out-driving many of his partners unless he's paired with the bottom 3 every time . . . Sticking your head over your right foot and moving backward and having a sexy angle don't equate to far . . . but he's got diabetes . . . so I got a bogus argument . . just sayin'.

Exactly - Young Schaeffer had more hand speed, pivot speed, and suppleness than Verplank, and unreal lag - at 1:41 his hands are almost mid-body and the shaft is curved upwards, well above horizontal. This all gives a more dynamic look(whiplash) and more power. Scott simply doesn't have the physical equipment to do this, so he maximizes his clubhead speed by playing his hole card, the late release.

I've read that Bobby has snapped ultra-stiff XXX shafts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grPppCol6_M

An older, less dynamic Schaeffer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1T4zRiRSBI

Someone on this forum has over 4100 posts and doesn't know what release is????

What a great opportunity! I could literally talk to him for hours. I wonder if Bobby mentioned any of the "junk" Ben taught him.:laughing1

Return of the X-Factor, even after McLean apologized!:laughing9

Yes, if the rules for moving it included keeping your feet planted and not falling over!

Where is the over taking? Those clubs ain't encountering the pulley . . . in that video with the older Shaeffer . . . he talks about the left arm being "rope" or loose or whatever . . . Doyle and Verplank are pulling with the left arm . . . short radius . . . Doyle's gotta shrink up his left arm so he doesn't crash the ground . . . Verplank's had wrist surgery . . . not saying his golf swing caused it but it looks like both of the are "holding on"

What good is the sexy angle if you never dump it? No surface speed . .

Since I'm ig-nant tell me what release IS? Is it hanging on to the accumulators and trying to deliver some massive amount of shaft lean to the ball?

Schaeffer is doing something way different than Doyle and Verplank . . . lever assembly gets extended. . . all that float loading is sexy but not sure it's required . . .

Bently musta forgot to give him the lesson about sticking his head over his right foot in the backstroke and hanging back . . . good thing he didn't turn up that day :happy3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVZ0w...yer_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grPppCol6_M

He was getting his nose right over the ball at impact. Great control of his golf ball and that sound of compression (heavy hit :) ) you only hear from the great players... I didn't hear anything that wasn't consistent with my studies here with YODA, but I haven't been around as long as you guys...

Kevin

Only if it was William Perry!

NICE!!! Da Fridge . . . all time classic . . . . picture with Manute . . .

You don't know what the pulley is.

The left shoulder pulls the left arm.

The only thing they are holding onto at release point is the grip.

They both "dump it".

You're sch!tting me! After 4100+ posts? What have you guys been talking about all these yrs?

FINALLY, you say something that's partially true!!!!! But the difference isn't release type, they're all three snapping, but Schaeffer is pivoting harder and faster - he's snapping faster.

You need another 2500 posts before you can recognize "junk".:laughing9

Ok then . . . where is the pulley then? I'm willing to learn if you are willing to teach . . . and who is "you guys"? I think I'm the only one pushing this deal . . . no use puttin' any of my words in anybody else's mouth.

So talk to me about the pulley . . .

OK . . . . I gotta step up here . . . I apologize to y'all . . . my tone has been harsh . . . no personal beef here with MizunoJoe et. all. I am sincerely sorry for my behavior here.

I'm stepping outta this one.

Never harsh, just passionate about what you believe. You have worked your butt off in finding your own way without blind faith in anybody, including Homer Kelley. Nothing but respect and gratitude for all your help Mr. Bucket. You are one of the finest on the WWW!

Kevin

This was inevitable I guess. We went from Snap for Comdpa to Ben's auto snap release , passive hands thing vs other ways. Bens way is in the book , but it isnt Swinging/ general. Its a way , not the only way. Its a darn good way though for some, agreed. But you can swing with a non auto release for instance and not be so ...."passive hands" , if you will.

We're all part of the same clan but we have different terms and different frames of reference. The first gsem's , gsed's respectfully , got some stuff mixed up and we are still paying the price... Its time to straighten stuff out and hopefully move on.

Call me a romantic if you must.

compda opened the thread with a very good snap release using a non-maximum pitch elbow just on the right hip. We have seen other snap releases using the pitch elbow in front of the right hip, but is it really a necessary condition for the "best" snap? Let's look at the 2011 Masters Champ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nPXpJQQpgA&NR=1

Starting at the :32 mark, look at the shaft angles and elbow positions by clicking through the frames. The right elbow stays to the right of the right hip, but just look at that delayed wrist action. Maybe compda had it just right from the beginning?

Thanks for this video...one thing that I am trying to work into my swing is a more active pivot. Focus on Charl's belt buckle to see the "work" that is being put in.

Also...

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AY7xLq9wUc

As per 2-M-3, "No amount of effort will produce more than a player's maximum turning speed."

By "not so passive hands" do you mean intentional wrist uncocking?

That is straight to the point of the not-so-max pitch elbow! Both Charl and Freddie turn their hips as they make a great lateral shift, rather than the delayed hip action. This pretty much preempts a pitch elbow in front of the right hip, but with the lateral shift, the elbow will be plenty far forward to preserve the right elbow bend, which preserves the left wrist cock.

As for 2-M-3, how does this relate to your adding a more active pivot? What specific hip action are you working on? Both Charl and Freddie use turn, slide, turn, but Charl turns deeper on the BS with a more modest lateral shift and raises the hips up through impact, while Couples makes a huge lateral shift and turns level on the DS, but he just doesn't turn the hips deep enough on the BS for my money. Hogan is probably the gold standard for hip action.

Short answer: Yes, but you can intentionally Roll too.

Long answer:

When discussing Swinging , the typical Non Auto Throw for a full shot would be a (Left) Wrist Throw. Either an on plane intentional, Non Auto uncocking of the left wrist , with the left wrist turned flat to the plane , sequenced release , 2 then 3 or an intentional rolling of the left palm off the inclined plane for an overlapping release 3 and 2 together. It sorta tips the club head over (breaking the longitudinal) to induce CF's pull on the head or throwout, Radial Acceleration. Different Non Auto flails , both swingers flails but with different associated feels. Sequenced feels like you drag longitudinally then thow out #2 angle and let #3 roll on its own at the bottom while the other one feels more like you're rolling the #3 angle with cf undoing the #2. The guys who like the Roll version typically prefer the low elbow planes.

I wasnt addressing Ben or his teaching, more the perception held by some guys on the net that TGM swinging is strictly Auto everything, Auto Release, true swinging , with what they call "passive hands" and that hitting is an active manipulation of release ( Non Auto Release). Which isnt square with how Homer defined Swinging or Hitting. Either way the hands are clamps but thats another story.

You can swing and manipulate Release, Uncock and/or Roll as hard as you want. Stick the thing right in the ground and hard. I believe the on plane Uncocking version is the better of the two for full power shots, Swinging but to each their own.

Which is what I see in that Mike Austin video above. A Non Auto (Left) Wrist Throwout of #2 Angle with the Left Hand still turned to the INclined Plane. Despite the Non Auto Throw he did have a small pulley wheel (and high hand speed. A high overtaking rate. He was long, to say the least.)


Comdpa since you're goofing around with your Release.....try a Left Wrist Throw and see what happens to your shots. There might be some added zing to em. Its not necessarily a big throwout of #2 angle down the plane just a little toss will do it to get CF pull , throwout started. Sort of like a running start on throwout. You must delay it of course , dont do it from top. Keep the left wrist flat to plane while Drag Loading and then Throw or toss out some #2 angle at the plane line while holding the left wrist turned to plane. It'll roll off on its own at the bottom. 2 then 3. You might be shocked by how late it can still look on tape. Maybe it isnt for you but its worth experimenting with it. Start at slower speeds then build it up. You can go to fast and ruin it. CF only likes to go so fast at first but once it takes hold you can never catch up to it via muscular effort.