Advantages Of the Centered Head
 

The Head Pivot Center is --ideally -- Centered between the Feet. In addition to the sensory advantage you have mentioned, it also offers an immediate visual confirmation of compliance with the Pivot Center requirement. It is an absolute, just as is the Straight Plane Line and the Flat Left Wrist and the Parallel to the Plane Line Clubshaft (when it is Parallel to the ground).

It also serves to Center other mission-critical Components -- the Shoulders, for example -- in preparation for their Uncompensated return to Impact.

Despite these advantages, the player can choose to locate that Head Center behind or in front of the Visual Center.

Or choose another Center altogether.

The question then becomes...

And you are very right to ask here, Bob...

Why do so?

It's Centered
 

I give up, Birdie.

See what you want to see. Do what you want to do. But if Adam Scott in this sequence doesn't have a Centered Head...

It simply ain't possible.

KK Lynn....I see what you mean....

And it's close....

But it's always been "precisely between the feet."

Maybe my definition of precision is excessive? I dunno.

...

And the pic has been altered, no?

(again, I realize the upward slope PROBABLY would tip the scales towards the back of center end of the debate....but it's not a sure thing IMO....and not a good pic to analyze then...we need more...IMO)

Birdie,

With all due respect to your love of The Golfing Machine and your participation on this site -- which, by the way, I appreciate sincerely -- have you bought the book yet?

...

And regarding Homer Kelley and his consideration of the Head Pivot Center...

Yes, he thought about it.

A lot.

And he specifically referenced it -- Bucket, run your search and tell us how many times -- and deliberately chose it over the 'point-between-the-shoulders' alternative (mentioned once and as just that, a deliberately rejected alternative).

So...

Homer made his choice...in no uncertain terms...and made that choice known to all who choose to read his work. Yet, in his own inimitable way, he did not mandate yours. [2-H].

Plow new ground here, Birdie.

Homer Kelley has already plowed his.

This might be one of the best posts regarding the why's behind a stationary head. Most posts really just regurgitate the book.

I think if you discount the sensory advantage then you can make a solid case of another static position/reference point.

I think either position still requires a stationary point of reference at or above the shoulders rotation arount point, a dynamic point would complicate and require timing to make a solid consistent stroke. Probably not repeatable for most, especially with age.

The Head Center Does Not Require "Middle of the Feet"
 

C'mon, Birdie.

I have stated Homer's own preference -- and my own -- for the "between the feet" location of the Head Pivot Center. It was Homer Kelley's ideal (as implied by the Chapter Nine photos in the first six editions and specifically stated in the 7th). But...

In numerous posts, I also have stated his practical adivce to students:

"Set your Head at Impact Fix and leave it there."

If that Fix location is "precisely" in the middle...fine. If a bit behind...fine. If a bit in front...fine. Just locate it and leave it and use it as a Center. Homer Kelley was all about golfers on golf courses, not golfers in the lab. I wrote these very same things in my first posts on this subject months ago, and I reiterated that position as recently as today. My message has been consistent. Why then, is there any perception to the contrary?

There is no mystery:

To serve his own agenda, one self-avowed "competitor" has assigned me the uncompromising doctrine "Head dead still and precisely between the feet." Homer and I get one location in time and space, and he gets everywhere else. Ridiculous.

So, your quote above is not true, and if you want to know exactly where I stand on this G.O.L.F. subject -- or any other for that matter -- then read my posts. All 4,000 some-odd of them. My positions are there, clearly-stated and available at the click of your mouse.

Meanwhile, beware the self-serving misrepresentations of another.

Here you is . . . .
 

1-L MACHINE CONCEPT 1. The Stationary Post (player’s head) accurately returns the Clubhead through the ball (Centered Arc).

2-0 A. The Three Basic Essentials are:
1. A stationary Head

2-H The spine, between the shoulders, is the center of the Shoulder Turn only, not of the Left Arm, except by specific extension of the Swing Radius. Because, Swinging from the Wrists, the Left Shoulder, the Right Elbow, the Waist or the Feet, show it to have just to many exceptions. Though the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory.

The important thing is that the true Swing Center - for all components - is around a Hinge Pin with one end at the top of the Stationary Head and the other in the ground precisely between the Feet, with no regard for Body Location or Position at any time. These lines may be a duplication. If found eliminate one of them.

More to come . . . gotta go eat!

Exposing the Truth
 

No, Birdie, the photos in the Scott sequence were not "altered." They were rotated approximately one degree toward the horizontal in order to remove the sloped bias of the original tilted camera angle. All Stroke relationships were unchanged.

And the only reason I did that was to counter the absurd analysis of the aforementioned "competitor." The day after I posted the sequence here as an example of the Head-Centered Pivot, he chose to use the exact same sequence on his site as an argument against it. As "proof," he drew reference lines -- I had drawn none -- purportedly perpendicular to the horizontal plane, i.e., the ground. In fact, given the slope bias, those lines were not perpendicular, and when I exposed that error, his argument collapsed.

As it should have.

More head . . .
 

2-J IMPACT ALIGNMENTS . . . Clubface alignment also includes the requirement that the center of the Clubhead arc be so located that the Clubface strikes the ball before it strikes the ground. If the Clubface is centered on the ball while soled behind it any distance whatsoever, the radius of the Clubhead arc must be shortened or the Club will meet the ground precisely where it had been soled. This procedure of shortening the radius of the stroke is popular – that is pulling in the Hands at Impact by raising the head and shoulders a guess-timated distance, or pulling back the Left Shoulder, or bending the Left Arm, all with that same “precision."

3-F-7-C BOBBING is raising and/or lowering the Head by faulty movement of the back or knees, and disrupts the Shoulder-to-ball radius

9-1 ZONE 1 . . . The Pivot involves twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a preselected sequence and spacing of whatever Components are being employed. Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot.

AXIS TILT Example – pouring tea.
Mechanical – To change direction, the helicopter Pilot alters the plane of the rotating blades by tilting their axis in the new direction.
Golf – To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips.

BALANCE Example – a hula dancer.
Mechanical – State in which all opposing forces cancel each other out.
Golf – Holding the center of gravity of the body inside The Stance without moving the Head.

PIVOT Example – revolving door.
Mechanical – That motion of a body moving around a center point.
Golf – A multiple universal-joint assembly between the Stationary Head and the Stationary Feet holding the Clubshaft “On Plane” by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 Accumulator, as directed by the Right Forearm.

PIVOT CENTER Example – thetherball pole.
Mechanical – The point on which an assembly is suspended or erected to stabilize and limit that assembly’s possible travel – the Hinge Pin.
Golf – Some point on the body kept stationary throughout the Stroke, to stabilize the motion.


STATIONARY HEAD Example – a spinning skater.
Mechanical – Same as Pivot Center.
Golf – Chosing the Head – rather than Between the Shoulders as the Pivot Center.

That's all the head references that weren't clubHEAD or aHEAD in the book.

Let me know what you want next Boss . . . if anythang.

I wonder if the Hinge Pin is really meant to be vertical to the ground? Can at Impact Fix can you have a bit of tilt to the right at the top while still having bottom of the hinge pin precisely between the feet?

Clearly this hinge pin is not meant to be the blance point of the golfer in the golf stroke (if that was so, then weight would be equally distributed at impact).

A Hinge Pin is normally costructed such that its movement is at right angles to stationary post. If the right shoulder is driving down, might it not have to be tilted in order for it to be the most efficent?

These are intended to be just questions not trying to make an arguement one way or the other. Just trying to understand the application of the Hinge Pin.

Lazy Bones
 

Thanks, Bucket. The references you have isolated in your past two posts prove the importance Homer Kelley accorded the Stationary Head.

The selected quote above is one of my favorites:

"The Pivot involves twisting the body..."

One of the reasons Golfers fail to execute a Centered Pivot is because it is far easier to Slide than to Twist. Most Golfers are too lazy to Twist. It takes work.

And so they Slide instead.

"[Swaying] is usually an attempt to replace the Pivot in working toward a Turn and a Weight Shift." -- Homer Kelley

I guess...
 

I reviewed a few videos I got, namely, Golf my way by Jack Nicklaus video; How to build a Classic Swing by Ernie Els and Ben Hogan DVD by Jim Mclean.

I heard so many time “Head still…..”
See Els's head in the capture top down view:-
http://bb4.babyhome.com.tw/UPLOAD6/9...4634.37637.jpg

On the other hand, the golf swing in the Hogan at older age video really moved "a lot" to the right but when i put it on V1 solfware, he definely returned his head to near address position through impact with quite active lower body movement.

Is flexibility an issue?

Great Post 12 Piece Bucket. May I add that 'word for word' these quotes can be found dating back to the First Edition (except the definitions which were added to later Editions).

Oh ya Lynn....I've had the book for more than a year now....it's highlited from front to back. Are there some important resources you think I should read relating to this? (if you're suggesting I've missed some important things)

I mean, I don't know it as well as you....but I know it not bad.

Aha....I may have missed this. I need to check this out.

(I still will decide for myself though)

In my opinion, it is counterintuitive to state that there is a sensory advantage to using the head pivot center, and yet still you (and Mr. Kelley) allow the head (and eyes) to rotate.

But that's a lot of reading to do...

If it were this simple all the while.....why all the confusion.....it would've been all pretty easy to clear up if you just said this was all a misunderstanding and we just pigeon holed you in some wrong way....no?

I mean....maybe you said it....but man if that's the case you need make that clear (as many times as it takes)....(at the top of your lungs)....maybe I missed it...maybe it got lost in the debate.....I dunno.

...

There are 2 things in my mind:

-what you advocate (and is only one thing, all the time?)
-and why? (including how it works and why it works)

The first needs to be clear....and the second is the part that is more debateable.

My guess is that the other teacher thinks it's important enough to continue bringing up.

Not sure I understand. Homer learned a lot in his "lab"....it's not irrelevant in the least.

Are you suggesting then that we should consider "what just works better?" (on the course)

That's one thing to consider of course....but you can't ignore principle either. (which I'm sure you'd agree with)

Ok so that's HOW they have been altered. (no?)

Sorry if "altered" comes off as a strong word....I don't want to say you're trying to neccessarily fool us....you made it clear you changed them....so that's good.

I'm just saying....

Is the camera just crooked? or is the ground actually sloped on an uphill? how much did he compensate? (with regards to head position) did he compensate?

Dunno.

Okok so he (apparently) made a mistake. (in not noticing the ground was sloped)

All I'm saying....is that apparently (after hearing all this)....this is one picture....and not a good one to judge either, I think.

Are they too lazy to twist tho? Or are they untrained? I can't pivot properly left handed no matter how much effort I put into it. (even on lazy days)

I agree for beginners sometimes....but what about tour players who sway a bit? These guys can pivot.

So is it choice? or coincidence? or is it taught? or is it natural?

Common Sense
 

Well, Mike Finney, my sense of sight and balance, not to mention my hearing, smell and taste -- are all located in my Head. And 'touch' also filters through there on its way to recognition by me. To my mind, that's a pretty good reason to view the Head as Command Central for the senses and as a pretty important resource when striking a Golf Ball.

To tell you the truth, it's a whole lot easier for me to sense my Head than my 'Point-Between-the-Shoulders.' But maybe that's just me.

:)

Doin' What Comes Natur'ly?
 

I absolutely agree that most golfers fail to Pivot properly because they are either untrained or improperly trained.

Ryan Smither, my assistant golf professional, is the one who posted earlier. Just so you have your ducks in a row.

So what you're saying is...you smell your way to a steady head?

Thanks for the input.

:)

Still or not still..........
 

The most important thing is to get the student to hit the ball better. If he does it by moving the head - fine. If he does it by having the head stationary - fine. We cannot all have it one way or the other.

Yoda,
in a another thread you say the following:

I strongly endorse Bill Mehlhorn's book.

In August 1990, I met Bobby Shave, the co-author and inspiration behind the book and the guy who recorded the sessions. [The book is basically a transcription of several Q&As with members of the Florida International University golf team in Miami.] Later, I spent time with him hitting shag balls and talkin' golf in an open field near his home in Homestead, Florida. Two years later, Hurricane Andrew destroyed the city, and I lost contact.

The personal history and stories are great -- Hagen, Hogan, Vardon, Sarazen, Diegel, Armour, Picard, Runyan, Bulla, Demaret, Locke, Boros, Jones...they're all there -- and to this day, I use several of his drills in most every Academy class and private lesson. Drill I educates the Pivot with its Weight Transfer. Drill II educates the Arms and Hands in their Body-Related Hinge Action. Drill III educates the Hands as to their Basic Fanning Motion. Drill IV, the Right Forearm Takeaway and return to Impact Fix. With Drill V, you can actually 'see' the Plane. Drills VI-XIII are more of the same, and Plate IX illustrates the golfing Ideal from a down-the-line view -- "the arms swinging up, down and up as the legs rotate the body."

Get the book.

Read it.

Study it.

You'll be glad you did.


__________________
Yoda


Well, Mehlhorn does not favour a starionary head, and if you use the drills with your students,especially the pivot drill, the head will move!

Steady head evidence
 

Ted Fort's video with water bottle on head goes some way to showing whether it is possible/ advisable/etc

BUT

did any of those white bobbles at titleist performance institute get placed on his head!! there went pretty well everywhere else!!

Any chance of seeing the promised photos please....

Thanks,

Typing with absolutely stationary head is not mandatory for typing procedure!!:eyes: if not that bottle of water is going to short out my keyboard!!

I wish it were as simple as this...

in theory.....

BUT... in application it does not and cannot....

Ever been to a Kinematics Lab?

For instance if the Pencil/Stick was in a Forward Bend of say 20 degrees and the Side Bend to the Right of 10 degrees the spine angle would stay the same....The head would've moved to the outside of the right foot and also moved up away from the golf ball....

Here at Campbell University we have several golf swings loaded in a 3D APAS Motion Analysis System which alllows us to view the golf stroke from any percpective of 360 degrees and gives us data in the X,Y,Z and 3D ....similar to that of TaylorMades MATT System...If I can figure out how to get one of the files to embedd here I will try to do so....

That would be cool to see!

If I remember correctly Dr. Gideon Ariel developed this system. In my college days, I was a tennis instructor and was able to see his motion analysis of John Newcombe's tennis serve.

Ariel's pioneering work was applied to Track & Field for the USOC.

Great...another cart kid with an attitude:)

I can't believe you said that Smithers. This is a discussion, not a battle. All opinions are respected. This is an LBG Forum, not the "Dark Side".

That's PATHETIC

So you would keep your eyes on the ball ,not rotate your head-and find it counterintuitive to use the head as a pivot centre ,therefore you must advocate a sway.:naughty:

...
 

Wow.

Please review my posts.

I replied in a sarcastic manner after I was given a condescending reply.

I was actually learning something in this debate.

I do in fact see a sensory advantage to keeping a stationary head...a truly stationary head...but I don't see an advantage (sensory that is) in a head that is allowed to rotate.

Adam Scott's eyes moved. How is that a sensory advantage?

I'm learning too. It would be interesting to see a second vote to get an idea of just how many members have finally, after 11 pages of discussion, come around to my way of thinking that the Head is the Center of the Pivot. (Oh, I meant HK's way)

Eyes aren't glued to the head. The head can rotate and the eyes counter the rotation and remain fix on whatever dimple they chose. The spine is not a pencil with a head on it. The spine adjusts and re-adjusts itself so the head can, if it likes, remain fixed.

I feel, see, and yes, smell the world from head- no sense in it coming off the one thing I need to strike- the ball.

There is more at issue here than a fixed head. The outside golfing world must be enjoying this.

Mike, most of the outside Golfing World is watching the Emmy's right now.

I'm sitting at work editing pictures and watching all the photos come across my desk. I noticed in Hollywood- "Have Chest- Will Shove" is the new motto.

hmmmmm Virgina Madsen


hmmm... womens vollyball- love good sports pictures

What's "more" at issue?

I like your job.

For a straight away flight... the eyes maintain the horizontal and vertical axis of the eyes while maintaining a fairly fixed gaze on the object prayerfully in the center of the fovial field..The eyes can and do move in the eye sockets in order to accomodate this ...This is the Sacadean movement of the eyes...inside the sockets....Try driving down the road keeping your eyes fixed on the car in front of you..proceed to rotate your head clockwise and counterclockwise while maintaining your fixed vision....In the goldf swing this rotation is very minimal..but does exist to some degree....

I still call this a Stationary Head. Do you? Btw, Nice Post.

Smithers,you started with your opinion,then proceeded to refer to H,K and Lynn B as "still " being opposed to your opinion,In my "opinion" you STARTED in a sarcastic manner.
I'm glad you are learning something.
You also, possibly ,agree that a stationary head is the ideal .

ROTATED eyes(ON AVERAGE- unless you can spin your head!) move less than swaying ones -or dipping ones,

The Ideal is no movement of the head,-Homer Kelly chose his words carefully,how close you can get to ideal is the question.Adam Scott is doing O.K.