http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVws0CQqTDc


This would appear to be a Non Auto Left Wrist Throw. Does it have anything in common with the Mike Austin "power throw". Where is it different? Is it a "powered" throwout albeit in line with what CF would do, or a tipping point deal, a mere trigger to CF throwout. Did Homer describe a "powered" Swingers throwout of #2 angle, an "active" hammering so to speak?

Whatever the heck it is I love it and remember fondly the day Lynn taught it to me (at the Swamp, Bagger was there too as I recall). Id say its primarily a Swingers thing, Left Wrist Throw from my personal experimentation but I have a bud who does it with his Right Hand or so he says, he is for sure more Simultaneous in Release.

Caution, no attempt at editing for brevity. Stream of consciousness follows.

Well, O.B. here's an example where the vernacular sometimes throws us off.
A "throw" is a release trigger whether it has any power behind it or not. Some of them really are "throws." They're usually used two or more together.
Lynn asked Homer "Why do you call it a throw?"
In typical fashion Homer asked "I don't know, what else would you call it?" which is like a lot of the vernacular. What else would you call it?

The left arm is inert. It gets pulled or pushed, it doesn't do anything by itself. The left arm is moved by either a shoulder throw pulling it or a right arm throw pushing it and the club.

Wrist uncocking is entirely CF, there's little advantage in consciously trying to uncock it, for a swinger and it's difficult to time close enough to impact. The hitter's straightening right arm uncocks the left wrist and controls the roll of the hands just to vertical left wrist for impact, no farther. Same with the swinger, the roll control. From then on there is no actual motion of the hands or wrists, it's just keeping the left wrist perpendicular to one of three planes, horizontal, vertical or angled until the left forearm finish swivel as the clubhead gets higher than the hands and the left elbow bends down. Like thumbing a ride to the stars.

What Lynn is demonstrating is a CF or gravity uncocking, and it's in line with the left arm. He calls it a vertical plane of motion. But of course, vertical references only the ground. So we have a little problem finding terminology for a cocking/uncocking motion always in line with the left arm when it's lying on the face of the plane. But that's what is meant. Vertical plane of motion on a slant. Heh. They're never out of line, no matter where. That's the beauty of that. (What else would you call it?)

Yes it is a swinger's move, it's done with CF because that's what swingers do, manage CF and the release must be sequential because you're uncocking on a plane and you're rolling to vertical wrists. The hitter can do them simultaneously and gradually. The hitter manually overrides CF but must be especially watchful for throwaway. It's hard to do. It must be constant, smooth acceleration or CF will take over. A short backswing and you have to wait until the right shoulder and elbow get close enough to the ball or you'll run out of right arm bend and throw the clubhead away. Then you can right arm throw.

Your bud may be hitting. But if he is swinging with the right arm it is a swing and is done with the shaft turned onto the sweetspot plane so it must be sequential release. And he's using a "pitch elbow" down in front. Tom Tomasello demonstrates a right arm throw on plane with a "wrist throw" we'll get to in a minute. I have a right arm swinger who delays the release and really whips at it. Hits it a long way but self-taught. Admires Retief Goosen, naturally, who's said to be a right arm swinger.

Mike looks to me to be a normal swinger with delayed release of a shoulder throw combined with a wrist throw, who lays off the shaft in startdown. As I said, that certainly gives you the feeling of throwing it a round the circle and Mike had a feel vs real problem.
If he's adding right arm into impact it may be a hit or a right arm pull but he is sequential release. He did not go into details of why he said throw it around the circle.

A swinger normally uses a shoulder turn throw and when that acceleration subsides the left arm is thrown off, with either a wrist throw or a delivery path throw if the wrist throw is too difficult to time (automatic at end of hands' delivery path, a snap release).
The hitter uses a right arm throw and delivery path throw, not a wrist throw as it's sequential.
Defs:
Hand Throw from the top, very hazardous except for the most well-educated hands, includes any hands-only putting stroke.
Right arm throw, a hitter's throw but not exclusively. TT used it for right arm swing which is similar to a hitter except with loosened wrists and on plane swivel somewhere in the backswing, and a sequential release, uncock and then roll to vertical.
Shoulder Turn Throw, swinger. The right shoulder is the last component of the pivot and the first component of the power package. It's the fastest in the chain, building on the feet, knees', hips' acceleration in order. Each have to subside to pass the baton on to the fresh runner. The shoulders pull and throw the left arm, down and then out.
Delivery Path throw, wherever the bottom of the arc of the delivery path (hands), long or short arc triggered automatically. Used with either right arm or shoulder turn throws.
Wrist Throw, the right hand remains palm up to the plane until release for a sequenced release, automatically or triggered non-automatic by initiating hands roll early before the end of the delivery path line.

That's it. Don't know what Mike Austin really did except he got his right shoulder very low (which should be aimed on the turned shoulder plane right at the ball) and he kept his hands at the right shoulder for a very long time. That to me is delayed release, because the right arm controls roll into vertical for impact, tethered by the left arm, and the right arm cannot straighten until the hands leave the right shoulder..
So aim the right shoulder at the ball and keep the hands close to the right shoulder as long as you can if you want to swing like Mike. Pivot provides balance and clearance and all motion must start with the hips.

Nice one. Thanks

Re 3. There is no "Left" Wrist Throw in the book, true. But I think its implied. Lynn often refers to a "left" Wrist Throw when Swinging. Not sure if Homer had sub categories to the Wrist Throw (roll vs uncocking) in mind or if he may have talked about it at any time. I suspect he did. Anybody know for sure? But believe you me there is a Left WRist Throw.......I suspect you know that and are pulling my leg.

Re 1. Please expand I really want to know about Austins throw, especially if its an X classification as Homer would call it. He acknowledged the existence of as yet undefined throws. He sort of collected them, asked good players about their throws or triggers.

Re 2. So Lynn is Hammering but not "actively" hammering or uncocking #2 is that what you mean? That its still a CF throwout of #2, on plane, but induced or triggered by a hammer like trigger , a tipping point type throw. Loren does Mike Austin power his Swingers Radial Throwout.... a powered flail if you will?

I love the Throws , they're the heart of the swing to my mind but so hard to talk about unless you share a common lingo. One thing is for sure , however Mike Austin did it , it worked.

ob.

Thats a very classical line of thinking consistent with TGM as written , nice stuff. I think there is some, perhaps not often discussed middle ground however, as you no doubt know. The Hitter who drags loads in Startdown and uses a Shoulder Throw for instance. Luke does this I believe. Or the Swinger who Rolls early and Overlaps his Release somewhat. (Some who do this think they're hitting actually. Sure feels like it but its not Hitting as defined by Homer anyways.) I agree with everything that you've written but just want to point out for the folks reading along at home , that Sequenced does not define Swinging , Right Arm Throw does not define Hitting necessarily etc etc .. I know you know what I mean, Loren. No attempt to correct you intended.

Shades of grey. Someone asked Homer once if a Swinger could employ the Angle of Approach procedure . His reply: "No .....well yes but they'd have a lot of compensations to make. But why would they want to do that?"

So along this line of thinking, call it the Lab or the looney bin..... I think the Wrist Throw, 10-20-E could include an active throwout of #2 angle , on plane , in line with what CF would normally produce with the Left Hand Turned to Plane , Sequenced Release. Either that or I got an entire afternoon with Yoda all miscombobulated. At no time did we discuss the early or late Roll of the Left Wrist, Non Auto version as written in the book. 'Course I didnt need that lesson being Random Sweep and doing it already.

If Im right on this (I am open to suggestions to the contrary) then Mike Austin's on plane radial throwout of #2 angle if thats what he is doing, is not far away. We may never know due to the feels vs reals thing.

The Swingers " powered" over riding of CF but inline with CF throwout ..... maybe its just a feel , yes I can see that as possible Loren.

Fun stuff to throw around. Its been on my mind for a while now. Thanks Loren.

P.S ever notice how M.A. talks about 'unfolding the right elbow" .... Lynn would like that one I bet.

Found it finally. I dont know about the biggest lie stuff but the rest I like.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqKdoBVYQ9E

Forgot about CF, din' he?
Don't think he needs to worry about the clubhead catching up.

Sure, O.B. do anything you want. If you uncock the left wrist manually you'll take out the #3 angle for roll power, which will make for faster hands in transfer power but lose some leverage.
Play around with it, sure.

I studied and played the Leslie King left arm swing method for a couple of years.

Thanks Loren the pleasure was mine.

If the left wrist is level at Impact (on its way to full extension) assuming a grip type that doesnt zero out the #3 angle why would there be a loss of #3 angle?

Cheers.

puck releasing
 

Gents,if I read the writings here,(you guys get deep)do i read Loren right in him saying he, Austin, "forgot about CF'when talking about catching up in release,wouldnt Bradleys "puck release"be a stand in,or replacement for deceleration if in fact he did actually use Puck Release.........hope you guys follow me,I DONT lol:eyes:

If by throwing the wrist cock you get a fully uncocked left wrist, not level, the #3 angle goes to zero. Just like Basic Motion. Take the #3 out with either a palm grip in the left hand or fully uncocked left wrist, not level, uncocked. Zero #3, no radial power. Necessary in chipping.
I show people this they are totally awed by their new chipping prowess. One guy holed one immediately.

Thanks, Brownman.
It's the advantage in communication of having a common vocabulary.
With enough detail comes understanding and confidence. The mystery of the golf swing disappears. You can quit chasing tips, start analyzing the action and be skeptical of the words.

Accelerated momentum caused by centripetal force (centrifugal inertial acceleration) is very powerful stuff reaching a ton of ft/lbs of force and feeling like 110-120 lbs in the clubhead.
It's going to overtake at the slightest slow down. You don't have to try to make the clubhead catch up with the hands. Quite the opposite, you have to keep the hands ahead of the clubhead.

What Mike is really trying to do is execute the roll into impact before the clubhead overtakes and makes it meaningless. He's afraid of leaving the clubface open with an automatic snap, same as Tom Tomasello. If you don't get to both arms straight with a suitable hinge action, you've lost your lag. And you can't make it happen. Gotta get rhythm, and it's different for swingers and hitters.

So he's straightening the right arm early, about right thigh location or entry into the release area. It could feel like pressing down on a table top like George Hibbard described it.
The amount of force he would use determines if he's adding right arm power to a swinging stroke. Homer said "You could do that, but why would you?"

But it's in the book under 2-M-3 Muscles "Only with the driver must(?) you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for lack of a longer club."
So a hitter would add shoulder turn (like Luke), and a swinger would add right arm. MA was a swinger.
And only with the driver. Those are 4-barrel strokes.
Direction might be a problem. And it's not the legs and hips, Tiger, et al.

Now that O.B Left has made a great find of some video, I think we've just about got Mike Austin figured out.
If he says "Throw it around the circle." right away we ask "With what?"
If the answer comes back "Whatever you got." then it's pivot, shoulders. It's likely he means no plane shifts, and a laid-off shaft.
If it's "hands" we'd have to keep in mind Homer's admonishment "No part of the power package moves independently of any other part."
That's "connection", if you will. Done with extensor action in TGM.

So it looks like a wrist throw that's been turned into non-automatic by manually triggering the roll prior to reaching the end of the hands' delivery path, the bottom part of the reverse "J" in the hands' path. i.e. automatic, almost too late, but not likely with the acceleration of the clubhead coming at it. Unreliable, though.
Mike was probably adding right arm thrust on entry to the release area.

(Have no idea what a "puck release" is. Sounds like hitting.)