Yes, Yes, Yes but this is what I was told by Paul after our chat.... Roll Roll Roll.... Watching the ball slice with a (Full Swing )7 iron with 10-1-E, and learn.

I am not sure of the context in which you guys spoke, so no comments.

Hand Controlled Pivot?
 

I'd say that visually, that it could be a little dicey determining if someone was hand controlled pivot or not. You never know what individual or series of movements in one's golf movement they have made automatic. That is you could be priimarily aware of just moving your hands and you may automatically with that thought and awareness have integrated a full shoulder turn with little independent arm motion- looks pivot controlled but is hand controlled.

The basic distinction here is - Are you primarily (not completely)-( i.e. not blocking out the body feel, awareness- or preventing it by not moving it) focusing on where and what the hands are doing- as they tell you what the club is doing, while having the body fully support that movement in both a geometric sense and also a physics sense - or Are you focusing on what the body is doing and the hands and club are somewhere in the background - doing something- who knows exactly. In the Hand Controlled Procedure- you start and stay with the basic concept and then work on having the body movement fully support that- it's a project completed over time. In the Pivot Controlled Procedure- it's a dead end in that - it is what you focus on- it is your procedure- you don't really build on it.

Back to the question- and an answer. You could also have someone that is pivot controlled on the backswing and hand-controlled on the downswing. You could have a player drift in and out of a hand controlled procedure and then not realizing all the issues- drift into a pivot controlled procedure.

With all of that said- Generally speaking or in theory the rofessional golf movements that have the quiet pivots, the supporting pivots, the efficient looking pivots- are hand controlled and the other ones are not. Again, you could have a beginner with a hand controlled pivot- that has a golf movement that is completely ungolf like- that doesn't support the on-plane motion of the club or the hands. Hand control doesn't do anything magically by itself- it's more like the christmas tree- you've got to have it in order to hang ornaments- it's the basic.

I'd say someone like Mark Calcavechia looks like a pivot controlled procedure. But it's not so important who is or who isn't- it all comes down to the most important approach- and that's "WHAT AM I DOING AND IS IT THE BEST THING I CAN DO TO EVENTUALLY SHOOT LOWER SCORES FOR MYSELF!"

Awesome information
 

An absolutely fantastic point!

This is gold. Golfers need this information no matter what level they're at. It's so fundamental, all students who are serious should be made aware of this right from the start.

More discussion needed regarding the last sentence, "...and then not realizing...". I thought the nature of the Hand Controlled Pivot is that you are aware of your Hands and what they're doing by definition.

That's the thing people have to understand, just because you're using Hand Controlled Pivot doesn't mean you'll get great alignments, but it's still the correct procedure that should be used while one is making changes in their Stroke.

Answers
 

Tong,
Thanks for seeing the value!

As far as your question:
Tong Quote:
"More discussion needed regarding the last sentence, "...and then not realizing...". I thought the nature of the Hand Controlled Pivot is that you are aware of your Hands and what they're doing by definition."

My point was that these guys (PGA Touring Pro's)- and I know that I can't speak for all of them - so this is a generalization and my assumption, - are unaware of the nature of a hand controlled pivot --

( on the wider level- goal orientation and purpose in regards to any movement, i.e. it's important to see the larger movement theory that validates the "hand controlled pivot theory in golf)

-- many are great athletes- and have been really good at a really young age. For them, "they play by feel"- it's not something that they analyze- in fact, that "analyzing" usually doesn't help them that much given their level of play already and the poor quality of information that they and we all have to work with. When it comes to the study of movement and the knowledge to improve one's performance- we're at the very beginning, rudimentary stages.

So for them - they may fade in and out of a hand controlled pivot- since most of their movement is not really consciously created or identified- therefore if they go back to figure out a problem in their movement- they don't know the steps that got them there - so they can't trace it. That's the problem that they have!, the disadvantage to "having talent" and "building a talent". It's probably one of the few problems they do have!, given their ability to put the ball in the hole.